EP. - ROMERO - CHRIST OF THE POOR
There's a saying, I'm sure you've heard it: "It always looks impossible until someone does it." We understand this truth, and greatly value it, when it comes to something like innovation.
Electricity, indoor plumbing, and flying machines all looked impossible to most of our ancestors. And we're glad someone did things that proved them to be realistic.
100 years ago every single standing athletic world record looked impossible.
When I was a kid, touch interfaces and video calls were the stuff of science fiction.
Then someone did it. So now we all do it, and think nothing of how wondrous what we are doing actually is.
The greatest things always look impossible ... Until someone does it.
In this series, we just want to help you notice how strange it is, then, that we tend to fail to appreciate this same principle when it comes to other things our age does not tend to value a much. Like ancient and religious things.
Why does the gospel seem so impossible to us, when history if full of saints who have done it? Who have lived in ways that show us what is really possible when we trust God's presence and help.
This time we look at how St. Oscar Romero can help us understand what it means to be the people of God.
[TRANSITION TO ALL THINGS INTRO]
STORY:
[MUSIC BEGINS/CONTINUES]
Intro: Romero Recording "What is the Church?" Pentecost Sunday 1977 [4:13-6:05]
Translation: This is the day, then, when the church was inaugurated. This is important, sisters and brothers. If people want to know something about any institution, then they have to examine its constitutions, its rules, and the reason why it came into being. Today is therefore an opportunity to know what the church is, so that we can all know and understand our own identity--not only we priests and bishops who preach about the church, but also the seminarians who are being prepared in their seminaries, the men and women religious who work and reveal the face of the church in the world, and all of you, dear lay folk, who are the life and the mission of the church. This has been my desire ever since my arrival as archbishop. Since my arrival the church has had to deal with very difficult situations, but at no time have I wanted to confront force with force. That is a disaster! [calumny!] What I have tried to do is define what the church is, because the more defined and known the church is and the more truly she lives what she is, the stronger the church will be. The church has no enemies, except those who voluntarily want to declare themselves her enemies.
To kick this off, let's reverse the classic word association game. Instead of me giving you one word and you stringing out a litany of other words that connect for you with the one I gave, I'll give you a motley litany, and see if you can name one word that could hold them all together.
Ready? Here we go:
Hurt, home, betrayal, love, abandonment, companionship, mother, whore, truth, deception, division, unity. And let's just stop there.
In our time, and given the bit of the Romero sermon we opened with, can you guess the one word that can hold together this list of opposites?
Church.
There is no way for me to know what every single one of you experiences when you hear that word, but, if you're willing to stick around for the rest of the episode, I hope you'd be open to letting St. Oscar Romero help you define, or possibly re-define, just what the church is.
[MUSIC]
In theology, we have a word, "ecclesiology." That big word is made up of two smaller Greek words: ecclesia, which originally meant, simply, "gathering," but came to be the term used to describe the Church - those who move from being a mass of separate individuals to becoming one thing because they gather in Christ. The second component word is logos, which means the rationale or reasoning for something. So, if you're exploring the rationale of the church, if you're asking questions like, "What is the Church? What's it's nature or essence? What is the mission or purpose of the Church," then you are doing ecclesiology.
Which is exactly what Romero was about in the recording you just heard. The sermon that clip was taken from was given on Pentecost Sunday, May 29th, 1977. Just 10 days before Romero gave this homily, the Salvadorian Armed Forces and National Guard used an ax to break open the Tabernacle in a Church in Aguilares (awe-gi-lar-es). Once inside they threw the sacred elements of the Eucharist on the ground, then trampled them with their boots. Now look, this is a really childish and dumb thing to do - sweat and strain to bust into a secured room just to stomp on some bread - unless other people consider those things to be sacred, and your only real intention is to insult those people.
Another time, a troop of government soldiers commandeered a church, forcing the priests and people out because they wanted to use the sanctuary as a barracks. Romero worked to remove the soldiers from the building, but when they refused, Romero asked if he could simply take the cups and plates, and the bread and wine used for the Eucharist somewhere else so they wouldn't be defiled. In response, a commanding officer turned and riddled the altar and Eucharistic elements with machine gun fire.
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Now please note, it is one thing to hear someone who has only ever experienced church as something they sometimes attend as an entertaining luxury talk about what they think the church is and could be. It is another thing to hear someone who learned to love, participate in, and think about the church in the kind of environment Romero did, talk to us about ecclesiology.
And in the sermon we sampled a moment ago, Romero tells us three things he recognized as essential characteristics of the church.
First, Romero says, quote, "the church is an experience of human openness to divine power" endquote. That means the church happens, the church exists in, prayer. Therefore, one of the primary missions of the church, is to pray.
Now, some today might be tempted to see prayer as otherworldly and ... well ... unproductive or useless. But Romero saw prayer as a central means for the people of the church to resist some of the most pervasive and deadly forces of our time. Like the selfishness and materialism that show up in both Marxism and Liberal Capitalism. The key here is to become people who recognize that when self, or material wealt become Lord of our lives, everything suffers, and so instead to let Jesus be Lord. And this is where prayer comes in. Romero says we can understand the depth of the phrase, "Jesus is Lord" only if we commune with God in prayer. Quote, "Those who do not pray because they kneel down before the god of materialism–be it money or politics or anything else–have not understood the true greatness of being a human person. To pray is to understand that this mystery of my existence as a man or a woman has limits." Endquote. And when prayer leads us to experience the limits of money and power and even our own lives and desires, we become a church that can learn to submit our time and energy and resources to divine things. And a church that can do that, might be quite useful.
[MUSIC]
Second, Romero says the church is a people of truth. But the Church is not guaranteed the truth because we're better or smarter than other people who might think differently or hold contrary opinions. The Church is given the assurance of the truth through the descent of the Holy Spirit, which is a gift of God, not something we attain by effort or birthright.
And the mark of whether or not the church has received the Spirit of truth is not off-the-charts IQs or Christians being appointed to head up academic departments or run corporations or nations, but, according to Romero, if we speak out for the oppressed in our preaching and writing, and actively stand against injustice and abuse.
The model Romero gives here is John the Baptist, who in the Gospels confronted King Herod for living with his brother's wife. And if this is the kind of ministry the Church carries out, the church is then also a people who will inevitably get in trouble. Because serpents don't like being told the truth.
It is at this point in the sermon that Romero spoke against those who profaned the Church in Aguilares (awe-gi-lar-es), asking why they needed to desecrate the symbol of the faith. But more importantly, he called the church to be the church by standing against such injustice in a Christian way. Namely, by condemning the actions, but not those who carried them out. To resist as Christians also meant that instead of offering condemnation, the church must be the place that opens doors for the perpetrators to change and experience forgiveness and healing.
[MUSIC BEGINS]
Third, Romero said the Church is a place of unity. Remember, Romero gave this sermon on Pentecost, and in the New Testament Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit enabled Jesus' disciples to speak in their own language, and yet for people from all over the world to hear what was said in their own tongues. From this, Romero named the key theme of unity in diversity.
Romero himself preached through the radio, and thousands listened. And the one message he gave all of those people was that the same Spirit of Pentecost had given every one of them a diversity of gifts and graces, so that they could use those gifts to help the Church become one. Quote, "No two leaves on a tree are the same. Unity means diversity and respect for what others think."
Pulling together his three points of unity in diversity, truth telling combined with healing and reconciliation, and all this being made possible and held together by communion with God's infinite goodness in prayer, Romero called his people to become the Church as they became like Christ and responded to the injustice of their world like Jesus responded to the injustice of his own. Quote, "In the face of this wave of defamation against the church, sisters and brothers, let us not forget that the church is beautiful. She is like those rocks of the ocean: when they are battered by waves, they are beautified with pearl-like streams; the waves polish the rocks and make them more gorgeous. This is the church at the present time. Let us experience her to the full!"
[MUSIC]
Now that all sounds like the kind of Church I want to be a part of. But where is it? The kind of church that Romero preached about doesn't seem attainable to most of us. But then I wonder, "Do I think it looked attainable to Romero or the people of El Salvador? When Jesus' disciples faced the same leaders and soldiers that crucified their Lord, do I think being this kind of church looked attainable before the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost?"
The truth is, it's not attainable, unless God is still involved.
This is the kind of thing that always looks impossible, until someone does it. And the Apostles, the Early Church, and St. Oscar Romero make us wonder, how much more is there to the church that we have yet to experience?
So in the conversation that follows, Kevin, Julius, and I talk through Romero's points to see how we might move from just talking ecclesiology and wanting to be part this kind of church, to becoming people who could help make our religious communities into this kind of church.
[MUSIC TRANSITION TO:]
You ever wonder how some people from Jesus' own day missed it so badly when it came to recognizing and understanding who he was? According to the Gospels, this even happened with some of Jesus' own disciples. I'm thinking now of Luke chapter 9, when two disciples named James and John asked Jesus if he wanted them to call fire down from heaven to destroy a certain tribe of people who would not welcome Jesus because he didn't just want to visit them, but was also committed to ministering to another group that they hated.
Today, while many may not like institutional or traditional religion, its assumed everyone likes Jesus. But in Jesus' own day, he was a very controversial figure. I mean, the day he was crucified was not the first time people tried to kill him. Many loved him, yes, but there were others who tried to throw him off a cliff.
And the old adage that hindsight is twenty-twenty is a lie, one that makes it a little too easy to look back and assume that we would have recognized Jesus for who he really was, and that of course we would also be about the things Jesus would be about.
Think of it this way, Mary was an unwed peasant. So if the Incarnation were to have happened in our time, what would Mary look like to you? And so how would you, on first impressions alone, see her Son?
It's important for our growth in Christian formation too ask, in light of this, would you and I have paid them any attention, or would we have written them off? And if someone like that were to start challenging the way we think and live, what would our visceral reaction be?
It's important to ask, because he still shows up in similar ways to do these very things.
[MUSIC]
In theology, "Christology" means the way we think and talk about the truth and significance of Jesus, and the Christian faith is what it is because we balance the convictions that Jesus was truly God and truly human. So when looking specifically at the Incarnation, we cannot just talk about "the God that became human in Jesus," we also have to explore "what sort of human being God became".
But during the late-nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, theological reflection on the person of Christ tended to focus a little one-sidedly on Jesus' divinity. So it created some scandal when in the 1970's, and against this sort of theological backdrop, Óscar Romero published a pastoral letter which developed his understanding of the church's responsibility to the poor. Because in this letter Romero didn't just insist that people should be generous to the poor, but rather "identifies the reality of those who are poor and marginalized as both the way to understanding our world and the way to discern the presence of God and God's will in and for the world." Why the scandal? Because that means the kind of human being God became is a poor human being, and the way to understand our world properly is to become the kind of person who can see God's presence in the midst of those who are poor and suffering.
You can't make a claim much bigger than that. So how would Romero defend it?
In his teachings, Romero paid particular attention to the biblical portraits of Jesus's life, especially to those moments that happen between the Incarnation and Jesus' crucifixion. And after paying attention to Jesus' public life and ministry, Romero concluded that the face of Jesus Christ was to be found in the faces of the poor. In Romero's time and place, these were the campesinos, the poor and oppressed peasant farmers of El Salvador.
Romero states that
"We now have a better understanding of what the incarnation means, what it means to say that Jesus really took human flesh and made himself one with his brothers and sisters in suffering, in tears and laments, in surrender. I am not speaking of universal incarnation. This is impossible. I am speaking of an incarnation that is preferential and partial: incarnation in the world of the poor." (129)
Now, just in case you might start to feel defensive or wary that Romero is laying the foundation for something like a class conflict, let's balance this with another part of his teaching. Romero was capable or incredible nuance, and elsewhere he argued, "When we say 'For the Poor', we do not take sides with one social class, ... What we do ... is invite all social classes, rich and poor without distinction, saying to everyone: Let us take seriously the cause of the poor as though it were our own -– indeed, as what it really is, the cause of Jesus Christ, who on the final judgment day will call to salvation those who treated the poor with faith in him," then Romero quotes Jesus' own words from Matthew 25, "'Whatever you did to one of these poor ones–the neglected, the blind, the lame, the deaf, the mute–you did to me.'"
[MUSIC BEGINS]
So let's return for a moment to one of our introductory questions -- if the Incarnation were to have happened in our time, who would Jesus be, and would we have responded in recognition, acceptance, and love?
Romero puts it bluntly: "Look at the poor. How much do you love them? That will tell you how much you love Jesus."
In the conversation that follows, Julius, Kevin and I dive deeper into how Romero might help us name and deal with some of the things that block us from being able to hear Christ's voice and recognize his presence in our own time and place.
[MUSIC TRANSITION TO:]
Julius: If you're listening to all things , trying, Sounds like a radio show.
Wilson: I always funny whenever you start, I always put myself in like the contrarian listener. Like how do you know I'm actually listening.
Julius: know. That's good.
Wilson: You might be coming through my car speakers, but I don't have to listen. That's . Maybe
Julius: hearing, but are you
Kevin: you, you two, four is over here trying to reflect your rebellious heart. Yeah,
Julius: Precisely.
Wilson: know me.
Kevin: don't know me,
Wilson: You don't know what I'm about.
Julius: But anyway, we are, uh, this is Julius and I'm joined by Kevin and Will, and as Will joked in the last take, we are joined by Oscar Romero as well. His
Wilson: I was not joking. See, I can't, Now I'm in the contrarian mood and That's right.
Julius: Half
Wilson: But also it's true. I wasn't joking.
Julius: Yeah, mostly true. Absolutely true, but we're picking up today on, um, the series on Romero.
And, um, today we're talking about ecclesiology, which is basically, um, the theology of what, um, the church is and what it means to be the church. And it's, um, it's, I think it's particularly, Important for us to talk about this as, um, we've mentioned before that Romero's theology stem, like his approach to theology was not primarily as like an academic or a scholar, but as a, a pastor, a priest, an archbishop.
And so that, um, all of his work and his writings and theology and ministry is tied up with the church. And so we just heard, uh, the beginning of that story, um, a quote where Rome talks about, um, what the church is. And so today we wanna unpack that. So Kevin, um, We'll start, we'll start here. You mentioned that Romero's characterization of the church rejects, uh, materialism in both ways.
And um, and like we'd mentioned, Rome's ministry demonstrates us a sort of theology that is embodied and very material in a sense. It's concerned with the material, concrete needs of the people of God in his community is particular congregation in church, especially as it comes to like feeding and caring for the poor and the oppressed.
And so keeping that in mind, what does Romero have to say about what it looks like for the church to be open to God and prayer? To be open to transcendence in an embodied, but not in a materialistic way.
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I feel like you just answered that right. There is, um, the, the mission and the life of the church for Romero, as he would say, is to cultivate a people of prayer. And not to focus on materialism. And so the quote there is, he, he rejects both the materialism. I mean, here we're getting socioeconomical and political, um, with rejecting both the materialism of Marxist, um, communism and also, uh, the materialism of, of capitalism.
Mm-hmm. . So here's another. Quote from another sermon that Romero talks about, but he says essentially that both of these kind of materialisms have an atheistic core. And he says that, um, the type of atheism logically includes the systemic rejection of the transcendental values that nourish the Christian's hope.
And so he said he pretty much defines materialism as anything that tr uh, denies or rejects any transcendental values of God, of the Christian, and especially of the. And then also in this sermon that we just heard, he talks about that the church should, should cultivate a life of prayer, in essence, looking to God and worshiping God, which means you reject and the, the kneeling and bowing down and worship of the God of materialism and the God of, uh, these two other, uh, systems.
And so he goes on to say even more. He says, The church knows this all too well, both in theory and from experience. It is therefore absurd to say that the church has become Marxist since Marxist materialism destroys the church's transcendent. Transcendent meaning a Marxist church, when that would be not only self-destructive, but senseless.
but there is an atheism that is closer at hand and more dangerous to our church. It is the atheism of capitalism in which material possessions are set up as idols and take God's place. And then he goes on to, uh, quote Vatican two. And then he says here, in a capitalism that idolizes money in human goods is as danger for us, as serious as the other, and perhaps more than the other, which gets the blame for all evil.
And so he says, essentially goes on to say both our atheism and that the church should embrace and remember her own origin and that's can only be cultivated in the life of prayer. Mm-hmm. is when you're constantly face to face in prayer with God and communion with Christ and with the communion of the saints.
Um, and prayer is a way to do that. Now when I say that, I know, I know prayer, uh, how do I say this? Um, I know prayer. And actions and like distribution of goods somehow have become competitive with each other or like against each other in recent
Wilson: we're materialistic
Kevin: Yes. Uh, but for Romero, that is, that is not the case.
That is not the case for Romero at all. Prayer and like distributing goods, uh, he would say like, Why are you dividing those two? Mm-hmm. , why are like prayers? Prayers and actions. Like, what, what, what the, what is that? And so he also like, so that's, You just heard him saying that. So it sounds like, Oh, the church only cares about spirituality.
Right? Spiritual things like prayer, um, therefore is not, they're not concerned with giving. But then he have Romero who also says this, He says that we should not feel it's superior when we help anyone. Those who give materially receive spiritually. There's an exchange of property that is understood only in a true spirit of poverty, which makes the rich field.
They are close brothers and sisters of the poor and makes the poor feel there are equal givers and not inferior to the rich. The giving is mutual, that there may be qua equality as St. Paul says. And so you have even Romero saying like, Yes, the church would be about about prayer, but then he also exhorts and commands and, and, um, orders and Christians to give materially Yeah.
And to give goods and all. And as a way of also shedding off this materialism that is in all of us. Um, and so that we're not, And so there's a connection that that prayer keeps us grounded in God. And also from prayer we. give. The reason we can give materially, materially is because we're not succumbed to the God of materialism.
We're not infected with that disease. You know, if that makes. To.
Wilson: So I just think now to jump in and help the listener and other people like receive some of the wisdom, uh, and move towards more faithful practice living from Romero. I think, um, Unpacking some of that stuff, um, where Romero would say, Or maybe even just like starting with the question, so why do we need something transcendent and why do we need God Yeah.
For these things to hold together well, Right. Well, um, on the like Marxist materialism side, you take something that's good, that Romero, that the church, that scripture that the Christian tradition would say is good, and that's equality. That's justice. That's everyone having. Yeah. That is something that's good, but when you make something that is good, the ultimate good, the only possible end, then just watch what happens when, Right.
You try to make that happen. Yeah. And watch what other evils you justify in order to, for us in our power right now. Because that's the only ultimate goal. That's the only right thing that does matter. Look at, look at the kind of violence that we would justify in order to bring this in goal around. Right.
Kevin: And that in Romero, in his time, there was a liberation is movements around him that. Would, um, use violence as a means to, you know, a good end. Right. And Romero completely opposed that. And even stay to like the, the, the people who were being oppressed, who took up arms as revolutionaries.
He even said like, You cannot use violence. Yeah.
Wilson: And points out that yes, that and . Here's where like, anyway, whatever. it's Will shama sd.org
Kevin: I thought you gonna put my name in there?
Julius: Yeah, it's
Wilson: No, man. It's the. That you gotta No, that'd be exactly what Romero would call it. Like, yeah, I wouldn't, you know, if I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna pawn the violence off on you like you have to. But the um, I think what, and this is what I'd say like, yes, Romero points us out for us, but as a saint, like he shows us what the church and what Christian thought and revelation points out for us. Is that when you do that, like the one step that you know, I've heard people, and you could even empathize, right? Again, that's not saying I agree, but you can empathize with people when they would say something like, Well, this is justifiable because they're the oppressors, they brought the violence upon themselves, whatever.
But you're not just doing violence to them.
Kevin: Mm-hmm.
Wilson: But when you engage in it, you're doing violence to yourself and you're doing violence to the people that care about you. And inevitably you do violence to the very people you're trying to save because this is this, when he said, like in the quote there, when you just brutally meet force with force, it just keeps the same thing going.
It. Feeds the monster, right? So that's on the material, the, uh, Marxist materialist side. But then on the capital, which this is one thing that I love, like good thinking, helps you realize, Oh, shoot, I thought capitalism and Marxism were polar opposites. , no, they're polar opposites in being about the same thing, right?
But that's where there's, they have that same commonality as the materialism because it's just a different way to treat material goods as the ultimate final end.
Kevin: mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
Wilson: then when you do that, you do violence to your own soul. You do violence to those around you, right? So if he points out and in his witness and in other places, he explicitly says like, Hey, this is the shortcoming of this school of thought.
This is the shortcoming of this school of thought and the economics that like go hand in hand with it. So why something transcendent. Well, and that, right what it fails to do. You have to have something beyond that good. Right? That, that allows you to even treat it as good. Right? But that's the thing. Like for, for material things to be good.
In their full potential. They have to play part in a larger wholeness, a larger goodness, like they in and of themselves can't hold it all together. There's gotta be something beyond them, a larger goodness that that gives them their place and within that framework, within within that larger flourishing, then material goods really can be good.
And so you have to have those transcendent values and really you just. Unpacking this, keep pulling on the threads. There has to be something genuinely transcendent of us, of anything created to hold it all together in harmony or like without that, it inevitably devolves into some kind of violence for the same reasons.
You know, you, you, we just kind of talked through how it happens in materialist Marxism and materialist capitalism, but you just place any other finite good in an ultimate place, and you just walk it through and let it play. Like in, in the arena of history, and you see the same process unfold over and over and over again.
And so prayer and worship is that place where Christians come together. And this is, it's not anti material, right? Right. That's the thing is it's materialist I or material is, um, that ick. And the, um,
Kevin: self exist. Yeah.
Wilson: come from that move of putting something good, you know, a finite good in the place of a transcendent.
Right. And that's, that's the irony of it, is you can be, uh, an atheistic Marxist, but you are implicit implicitly treating something as an infinite, finite godlike thing. You know? Um, there's, there's really no atheism, but atheism is just putting something that's not God in the place of God. There, there's really no way around it.
And so what Christian prayer and the church is the body of people that engage, that learns to understand ourselves and our world through things like prayer and worship, and prayer. And worship uses stuff. It uses words, it uses incense, it uses movement. It uses song, it uses sound, it uses bread, food, you know, all this stuff.
It uses the stuff. But to teach us in a way where, where here's Ramirez's thing in a. To teach us to be open to God. Yeah. To see that the material world and this stuff is a way to open up and that makes us into the kind of people, right? That that's how, that's how our material goods, these finite things could open up on this transcendent goodness, because we've learned to see it in that framework.
So now when we're out there in the world and we're feeling the pinch because, well, I'm scared that I'm not. Be able to pay rent or whatever it is, but to, instead of seeing it as this is the good thing, it's a tool to open up to good. And I find God and generosity, right? And so in that practice of worship and prayer, we can be the people that would use that stuff in a, in a way that opens us to transcendence.
Kevin: There's a question here in the same that, uh, that Ro Romero says, uh, this play, this is what I love. Cuz you get into politics, when you start talking about it. Uh, but this, these two systems of, uh, Marxism and capitalism, um, Romero has this fascinating quote or a question. He says, quote, which is more serious.
So think like Marxist first, capitalism second, which is more serious on the one hand to deny God out of a false idea of human liberation, or to deny him out of selfishness. Raise the level of idolatry.
Wilson: There it is.
Kevin: And more questions. Who are the greater hypocrites? Those who believe in this world, to the point of denying openly what is transcendent, or those who use what is transcendent and religious as a tool and justification for their idolatry of the earth.
Both are atheism with where Meryl says,
Julius: So if you were to summarize kind of like, uh, so we're talking about like Romero's ecclesiology, which is like, what is to be said about like what the church is. What would you kind of like sum up that point? Is that the church is. Something like the church is a body of people, but that, um, and that is like an embodied material reality, but it's not purely materialistic.
Kevin: Yeah. It's, it's focused on something more, something transcended like Will said something deeper. Yeah. Um, uh, I think Romero will say better than I can. Um, here's another quote. I'm just sharing quotes left and right here. That's perfect. And so,
Julius: Uh,
Kevin: the church quote, The church cannot seek only liberation of a temporal nature.
The church does not want to liberate poor people so that they can have more, but rather wants them to be more.
Julius: Mm
Kevin: She promotes people so that they are more, The church is hardly concerned with having more or having less. She is interested in making sure that all persons, whether they have many possessions or not, make progress and become true human beings and children of.
Julius: Hmm.
Wilson: Should I, could I take a stab and, uh, as the Rome expert, I'll defer if you don't.
Kevin: for
Wilson: but I'll take a shot at from our conversations and what, what you've told me and what I'm hearing here. Like, it's like, what is the church? I mean, I don't think, I'm sure I am certain on this point, uh, having done a fractional amount of the reading and study that Kevin has on, on Romero, but I'm pretty, pretty certain on this point that Romero would say the church is the body of Christ in the world.
Right. And that's, and that's where like, through that, you know, it just, it just kind of goes to show. Um, Well, I guess this as far as not, not defining it in like a, an ideal way or what really what the church really is, but just descriptive of the church in North America. The church is a people who have forgotten their own identity.
Yeah. . So, and that just goes, when I say something like the church is the body of Christ, how much work? How we, how hard it is to do this in a 30 minute
Julius: yeah, I know, I know
Wilson: Because, because of that forgetfulness where people would say, Oh yeah, sure, the body of Christ. But what does that have to do with blank?
Yeah. What does that have to do with, you know, generosity? What does that have to do with politics, economics? It feels like you're kind of sneaking some stuff in here. No, no, no. Like it comes through the body of Christ. Right. Uh, so the ways I put it here, The word ecclesiology, right, is the eia and then logs.
So the rationality, the study, the talk about the eia and the EIA was not a word that Christians invented. That was a word that was round for a while. That just meant, uh, a, a people that had been called together for a purpose. Right. Been called out of everyday life together for a certain purpose. And it was a political term because the most, like, well known common, like the most common usage of the word EIA, was a group of rulers who had been called out of daily business to get together to do politics, to talk about the state of the city and how we're gonna run this stuff
Julius: Mm-hmm.
Wilson: And so now, The Christian reworking of that term is people who have been called out of our everyday business in life to come together as the body of Christ and as the body of Christ through him. Through that kind of, which this implies all the stuff we talk about, that openness to God, Christ is the one.
With flesh and blood that met us here and opened the doors to transcendence for us and invited us to partake in his life. And as we continue to do that, we become the kind of people who learn to deal with the world the way Jesus did. So we learn first to, to use, to understand everything in a way that leads to overall flourishing and goodness that would honor and, and let the glory of the Creator show through it.
Right? Um, and then in that the people who train. Through prayer, through worship, through virtue to be the kinds of people who could even imperfectly go out in the world and do it as if Jesus were still walking around today.
Kevin: yeah,
Wilson: Ecclesiology?
Kevin: yeah. I hear, Oh. Like we become who we're always meant to be. We become our true selves. We become
Wilson: Mm-hmm.
Kevin: truly human. Who? Human beings.
Wilson: Oh, you were, You didn't, didn't you just say, When Romero would give the Eucharist out, he would tell the person, become who you.
Kevin: Augustine.
Wilson: Oh, was Augustine. That's all right. Okay, so there we go. So now I'll hand it to you. You, I butchered it. You, you,
Kevin: say when, when, uh, when Saint Augustine of Hippo would, uh, give the Eucharist to the church, he would say, As he's holding the consecrated, uh, body and blood, um, become who you are as people will receive it. And so like, I mean, that's a picture of the church as well.
The church should be the place is the place. Yes, we fail, but is the place that God created where we become truly human. Like where Rome says become true human beings and children of God. It's, it's more about becoming and.
Julius: So I, I think that that summary of Romero's ecclesiology, especially as you, um, talk about being like the, the body of Christ, Were to take that, understand that in a very real way, that the church embodies Christ's presence here on Earth. Uh, it makes me think about, um, What the gospels say about Jesus And how so?
Um, so much of that is tied up with like the, the activity and the work of the Holy Spirit. I think about like the, the spirit drives like Christ into the wilderness and like the spirit compels, um, Christ to he, like when he's at the synagogue. Like, um, reading that, um, the scripture, uh, about like, uh, the, the spirit kind of descending on.
Um, to, to preach a good news to the captive. Um, that if we are to, to take that seriously, that we are the body of Christ, that we are to embody Christ's true presence here and now. Like we can't divorce that from the activity and the enlivening of the Holy Spirit. And so as we kind of move towards the latter half, um, I think talking about like, um, The church, not just as a body, as we might understand it in purely materialistic terms like this, as we've kind of established, like the church is open to transcendence, as open to God.
And so we, we've gotta talk about, um, the presence and the work of the Holy Spirit in both, um, I guess holding together and unifying the body of Christ. And also, um, you. Through, like these ramer quotes have mentioned that, um, the church is led by the spirit of truth. Can you talk first, um, before we kinda move into the unity portion of it, can you talk more about how the church is led by the Holy Spirit and specifically like the spirit of truth in how we eat?
Kevin: Yeah, so Romero here quotes, uh, John 1426 where Jesus says to the, the disciples, the church. , I will send you the spirit of truth. Um, and so the spirit of truth and the, the day that Romero is preaching, the sermon is on Pentecost Sunday. And so he is, that's why he's talking about the church. I mean, what a perfect day to talk about the nature of the church and the mission of the church on Pentecost.
And so he talks about the spirit descending upon the disciples and creating the church and the spirit is the spirit of truth. And so we kind of flesh out what is the church, the body of Christ, and what is a mission? The mission of the church here, Romero, Um, in the context of El Salvador, he's, he highlights the spirit of the truth.
So here is, uh, One of the missions of the church is to be a a people of truth. Yeah, a truthful people. Um, and he writes this because in the newspapers and in the, um, uh, radio stations and El Salvador, the church, her priests, her people are being defamed, uh, slandered. Um, there's half truths, there's ambiguity, ambi, uh, ambiguities, um, and all things like that.
I mean, there's nothing that in America, but, um, Um, but there's, there's all this stuff about the church. And so where Romero is calling the church's, like, We need to be a people who speak truth. We need to preach truth, right? Truth speak, uh, against the lies. Clarify ambiguities, dispel half truths, and he says, Which are worst in lies?
and the church would be like her prophets who spoke against lies and justices and abuses. Um, and so he, he c he calls forth and he says, even like the humble farmer can, even by being filled with the spirit of truth, can also detect these lies. Um, and so even they have an oblig, uh, a calling to speak against lies.
And so, um, So the, a ministry of the church is to be a people who speak truth and which is like, I mean, this is not easy stuff at all because when you speak truth to power, um, it tends to buy back When you poke the bear, it tends to like mall. You
Julius: he stew.
Kevin: tends to, um, but for Romero is like, we're, we're, we're, we're called to be a people who are not.
All about lies. We're not built on lies, we're not built on has truth. Half truth. We, we we're built on truth and we we're built on telling the truth about each other and also the truth about society, the truth about our world. Um, and this is a ministry, uh, that the, that God has called the church. And so, and to do it obviously in this posture of humility and love, but nevertheless to speak out against, you know, lies.
Uh, one of the things in the sermon that I love is that he says like, Say, like, speak the truth. Say this is alive. You see something that's wrong about the church, uh, in the newspaper and it, but he, then he says, If you have doubts, go to someone who can enlighten you, an expert in ecclesiastical history or theology.
And he says The truth of the church is not some hidden treasure. It's out there. And so he says, like, even educate yourself to train yourself in detecting lies and speaking the truth. Um, even though you may have self doubt or insecurities about.
Wilson: It's so pull in part one about the political dimension, nature of the body and how we use things and material and out this, the spirit of truth, like. And, uh, you know, El Salvador is a as tense as things are in North America in 2022.
Julius: Mm-hmm.
Wilson: You know, still Romero would be like, kidding me, That's like a beach vacation.
People, like, I got shot in the, in the middle of mass, you know, like, um, So well, Well, okay, so now, shoot, that's the, for, for many people, you know, and I've had, I have lost family, you know, I have family that have lost people in church services Yeah. Because of gun violence, you know, so it, it's, it's not as, uh, we'd say what would.
there are differences, right? So I'm not the expert, you know, and so taking don't really have the time now to, to flesh out particularities of the differences, right? But while there are differences, thinking about what it is in our place, you know, in North America in 2022, most, so those of you listeners who aren't in North America would.
Julius: Right.
Wilson: You know, we'll leave it to you too. You know, I won't pretend to be the expert
Kevin: Who are you and
Wilson: your
Kevin: reach out to us.
Wilson: uh, it's will shama sd.org. But,
Julius: with one L,
Wilson: but dang it, that was on purpose. I had not told that. I had not made that clear.
Kevin: Anyway, um,
Wilson: what am I talking about? Oh, so. So let's just say like you're, you're a typical ish person sitting on your computer looking at what's going on, and there's things inside of you that are just like, No, no, no, Not that.
Oh, not that either, right? Um, and then you hear or you see something that just flat out attacks your faith. Right. And your spirit inside is like, But that's not my faith. That's not the God. I know that's not, But I could understand why people would think that. Right? Where I go with that is like the spirit of truth is the spirit of truth.
And if there's been a place in your life where you have, have. Just had this spirit minister to you internally, spiritually, like give you the grace that you need to carry you on. Like that's a, that's great. And we can, we can make the mistake, just like with materialist material and material, different ways of.
Turning from the material world to materialism and being materialistic, we can make the mistake of over spiritualizing things for sure. We can over spiritualize it. So where it's like, you know what I, I do have some extra money. I do have time, but you know, I think it's enough that I feel sad for that person over there that's hungry
You know? And you can over spiritualize it for and miss out on the opportunity to really be the body to participate. Being the church, right? But it can go the other way where you can under spiritualize it too. the spirit has given you that, pay attention to the truth that God has given you that right, But then also as the spirit of truth.
I mean, think about all the dimensions of that confession. It's the spirit of truth. If God has met you that way in your inner being in your life, that is who God is. all the time in all the dimensions. And so that God of generosity is the same God of generosity. If you switch it from the spiritual internal dimension to the external material, one, God is the God of grace and generosity.
And if you know that truth, witness to that truth, right? So when we speak out the truth, it doesn't just mean, you know, clap back on Reddit. It means show people the truth. Give them tangible experiences of that grace flowing through you. Right? So then it's not just an abstract argument, it's it's genuine existential cognitive dissonance where it's like, Man, I thought these Christians, but then that day, Right. And, and you, you share, you give, And that's a, that's, you know, knowing the spirit of truth and witnessing being, being moved to communicate that in words. Sure. But also there are many, many, think of all the ways God communicates, can communicate. Yeah. God's generosity and goodness to us. You know, even just the generosity of it.
There is a world and there's. And so I might live today, right? And all the ways God can communicate generosity, that becomes our language too, as the body of Christ.
Julius: Yeah. Uh, to kind of wrap up this, this portion on truth and how, um, this, the Holy Spirit leads the church into truth, we've talked a bit about kind of, and it's given me a lot to sit with myself to, to think about how, um, we're empowered and called by the Holy Spirit to represent the truth about Christ and the body of Christ.
Um, and, and I'm thinking about like, um, Why Romero kind of focuses on this aspect of where the spirit leads the church and why he talks about truth. And I think about kind of his, his cultural context and background, and we've talked about kind of some of the socioeconomic and political stuff, um, is an aspect of, of the truth that he's kind of speaking about, like representing the truth of.
Like reality as it is of just like when, when I think about, um, the call for the church to kind of address injustices and to speak truth to power and to kind of, um, call out like oppression and things that aren't working, that it feels like that work of truth is also about like, representing the truth of the, of reality as God has intended it to be.
Would you say that that's like an aspect. What Romero talks about as well in connecting the church's mission to the spirit of truth.
Kevin: Oh, for sure. It's to, uh, the, the phrase that came to mind is to the church should remind, um, or yeah, remind the world like what the world is, right? And the church should be the church and be the, be the kind of world that God. wants the world to be like, the whole, the whole purpose, the whole destiny is that the world becomes the church.
Right. In the sense of like, that's, that's where it is all going. You read, you read the book of Revelation. It's like the whole new heaven and new Earth, like the church should be a preview of that. Yeah. And the church is like the end game.
Wilson: And there, and there is no temple
Kevin: and there. Yeah. Yeah. Mm mm. Yeah. Exactly.
Um, and so the church should be the kind of world that it's gonna exist at the end. Um, and so for Romero, Yeah, that's that truth. It's essentially that. And so wherever, so you have that view of the future, I mean, this is getting into Romero's, uh, Es eschatology, which is another episode, But you have that view of what the church is at the end and what the church is now, and then all the dissonances along the way.
The lies. Yeah. All, all the, all the, you know, divergence, all the, the contradictions between what the church is at the end of ages and what the world is, is what the church can speak out towards and name those, um, you know, uh, contradictions or, uh, things that are opposing, uh, against each other. And so this is, That's why I love Romero.
It's cuz he says things like, Yeah, uh, you know, liberal capitalism and Marxist communism is not the way of the church and not gonna be there at the end anyways. And so the church should reject that cuz the church is transcended, um, is another way of saying that the church is eschatological. Um, and so yeah, it's, so all these things is, is trying to.
It's for all speaking this truth and revealing what the church is in relation to the world is not this sense of like, I'm gonna speak the truth because you guys are all wrong and therefore like you need to be, you know, corrected. It's more like I'm doing, We're revealing this truth for the sake of the
Julius: Yeah.
Kevin: For the sake, for the world can be like, oh, that's what reality is. Let's join that. Yeah. You know, and so it's always, as a sense of ministry, it's always has a sense of like, um, yeah.
Julius: Yeah. Well I love that that that highlights kind of the missional aspect of Romero's ecclesiology that in, in the church, uh, being like what it is, like what we were talking about with like the Augustine thing, right? Be, become like who you are or like you truly are. That, that, um, in doing so, that, that is for the sake of inviting the world into like, God has intended reality to be.
So if that's like, if that's part of what the church's vocation is, then um, this last, this last part, I'd love to kind of explore that, like in order to embody that, like a kind of reality that we want to invite people into as like full communion with God in one another that we need. To be like united in a very real sense.
And that you've talked in, in the script, and based on the Romero quotes, you've talked about how the Holy Spirit is the guaranteed unity for the church. Can you talk more about, um, What, uh, yeah, just kind of expand on what Romero means by that, especially kind of given his background where there's lots of tension and disunity and lots of just like animosity between different groups.
Like, um, what does the guarantee of unity in the spirit look like for the church, and how can we move towards that?
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, this connects pretty well with what I said last time, is that, um, so here's a difference between the church and the world in terms of like the, the things that are are contradictory. Opposed to each other is that the world cannot help but be divisive. Mm-hmm. , um, you cannot, you can look for unity in the world, but there's, it's only because of God's spirit that there is like resemblance of it.
And the church is called to be that place where, uh, unity happens. And so for Romero, he says that church is the places where all languages are come together. Uh, all peoples, all nations of the whole world come together and worship in love to the one God in prayer. And this is, I mean, you have the notion of revelation.
You have the notion of Pentecost, where the church is actually a people who are united cross boundaries, cross cultures, cross ethnicities, cross you know, socioeconomic status. Um, and this is one aspect of unity. He highlights. Another thing he highlights is that, uh, he uses an analogy that al a tree, that new, no two leaves on the tree are alike.
And he says, like the church, the spirit has given diverse gifts to a diverse people. And so he says, Some of you're called to be priests. Some of you're called to be bishops. Uh, you know, religious monks, nuns, laborers, farmers. But you all contribute to the body. Yeah. You know, all of you, all of us contribute cuz those are spiritual gifts.
And the spirit gives always for the purpose of unity and always for the purpose of building the body. And so the spirit is this,
Wilson: we'll see how these things flow in and
Kevin: unites us in the
Wilson: is, I mean, this is the trinity, right? There's unity and distinction. And anytime you try to like, uh, overemphasize one part, you lose the other part. That's just very, as much a part of the trinity, right?
If you overemphasize the unity, you lose the distinction of the persons. Mm-hmm. , right? You over emphasize the distinction. You lose the unity. So just like, if this is the reality, That really is the transcendent reality of the world that we're being called into, and the spirit's witnessing to that. You'll see this kind of thing flowing in and out of the issues and the distinct things that we, we focus on.
So how I'm seeing that happen, I mean, I'm sure it's happening in lots of ways. How I'm seeing it happen is through talking about the spirit witnessing in our inner being. Right? And that's dispositionally. That's where I tend to start. It's like inside, because that's where I tend to spend most of my time. But from there, But that spirit meets me there. Yes, but that also doesn't let me stay there. So help me see, okay, if this, But I'm showing you here who God is. God is the same God there, right? So engage in the world that way. That's the source of our unity. And so the church is gonna experience everything that the world experiences.
Julius: We
Wilson: We, I was just talking with the pastor yesterday who was sitting with person, somebody who's been very hurt by the church, which is, I mean, that's just general details, but also who doesn't know someone who's in that kind of place? The church is gonna experience that, but if it's the spirit giving our unity, right, It's the spirit of reconciliation, the spirit of God that gives our unity, not the fact that the church isn't gonna. Right. Or be hurt, right? So this leads to like the unity flowing out into the world. We, we learn to become together. And even towards the world, like Romero says, even those who, like we, you're not our enemies on our end, but only if you set yourself as our enemy. This is why he keeps to define what the church is.
That's what I love so much about that quote is we don't just come in here and play the same games, meet force by force, but what I've tried to do as your bishop is just define what the church is. And, and give you the theological resources and to be the kind of leader that would lead you into being the church, right?
Um, and so when that happens, we learn that it's, it's the spirit that gives our unity. Not that we're all perfect people or even good people, not common interest. You know, it's not a special interest group. It's not, it's not a club that likes this board game or whatever it is, right? It's the spirit. So when it happens, we tell the truth.
Do that really hurt. That was wrong. You can't keep doing that. And as my brother and sister in Christ, when I was hurting, I expected more. You tell the truth, but you can tell that truth and remain together because the ultimate truth is the God that can heal and reconcile. And so we become people of forgiveness to the world.
That is our politics, is we become people of reconciliation and forgiveness. Right now, we don't jump to it because then you're not actually reconciling and healing. You're ignoring and you're telling you're lying. Right? You're creating a fantasy. But the kind of people that can face head on, live through the worst of the world and still move to a transcendent end, that is good.
That is peace. So, concrete examples of that, I think of, and I wanted to do this too partially because earlier I, my mouth got going fast and I talked myself into a corner and then like I was on the fly, right? So I mentioned church shootings and that I had fam, So to clarify, I think it, it'd be more accurate to say I have family that I love and I'm close with who has lost
Julius: Mm-hmm.
Wilson: So like I, I met the people that lost their lives that lost, or I met some of the people through family that, uh, lost their lives in, uh, church shooting in southeast Texas, um, or a couple years ago. But the point being there, that church and how, and I've also, because of that, I've heard like conversations going on with the person that's now the pastor at that church and what the board is doing and the decisions they're making.
On the other end of that, they're still a church. and they're still learning what to do together and they're reckoning with what to do with the family of the person that perpetrated the violence and how to be the church to those people. I think of like the Amish church school, the church or school shooting, where their response was to set up funds for the children of the shooter cuz they lost their dad too.
Julius: Mm.
Wilson: You know. Oh, wow. Um, and I, I think of in the middle of everything raging in North America in 2022, summer, I think of my friends that in the middle of that, right, they already have a lot of kids. Uh, one of them is in a tough spot, so they're really, really struggling to pay their bills, but they're still, uh, taking in foster children and working to adopt them.
And they've adopted two foster children. Right That, that hearing the spirit do in them what the spirit does, and then finding ways to live it out. That's, that is the politics of the church, but that is also the unity that's possible in the Holy Spirit. The kind of, the kind of unity that heals and reconciles the divisions, the tears, the pain, and the hurt that our world is currently experiencing.