EP. - ROMERO - SALVATION AS TRANSFIGURATION & LIBERATION
There's a saying, I'm sure you've heard it: "It always looks impossible until someone does it." We understand this truth, and greatly value it, when it comes to something like innovation.
Electricity, indoor plumbing, and flying machines all looked impossible to most of our ancestors. And we're glad someone did things that proved them to be realistic.
100 years ago every single standing athletic world record looked impossible.
When I was a kid, touch interfaces and video calls were the stuff of science fiction.
Then someone did it. So now we all do it, and think nothing of how wondrous what we are doing actually is.
The greatest things always look impossible ... Until someone does it.
In this series, we just want to help you notice how strange it is, then, that we tend to fail to appreciate this same principle when it comes to other things our age does not tend to value a much. Like ancient and religious things.
Why does the gospel seem so impossible to us, when history if full of saints who have done it? Who have lived in ways that show us what is really possible when we trust God's presence and help.
This time we look at how St. Oscar Romero can help us better understand what it means to be saved and what true salvation has to do with works.
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STORY:
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[4:15-5:44]
Translation: "This is what I want to tell you to sum up: there are works without faith and without love. Just as there is faith without works, there are works without faith. There may be much activism, much coming and going, but the works are not done out of love, nor is there faith. Saint Paul says, «If I give my possessions to others, if I speak in human and angelic tongues, if I do marvelous deeds so all the world applauds me, but I do not have love, I am nothing» (1 Cor 13:1-3).
Works without love, works without faith are dead. So also the reverse: «Faith without works is dead», says Saint James (Jas 2:17,26). Saint James in his day, the first age of Christianity, could already envision the exaggerated proposal of Luther in the sixteenth century that «faith is sufficient». Luther's problem was that he put one little word in his translation: faith alone is enough. He held that faith alone, without works, is what saves us, and that is very dangerous."
[7:18-8:10]
Translation: "That's why I'm happy to read that recommendation of the Seminar for Educational Reform requesting the religious sects not to preach an alienating type of Christianity or a religion that does not engage with history15. And I'm also happy that we are preaching this commitment to history in light of the Gospel. Salvadorans of today, you will not be saved if you don't work intensely for a better world, beginning with your own homes and radiating grace through your daily labors, as humble as they may be. You may be making bread, working from dawn to dusk with a machete, or hoeing, but do it all with love. Show by works of honesty and faith that we truly love and fear God."
At a key point in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus took a few of his disciples up a mountain and ... Something changed. It's an odd story, as stories of God encountering us should be. The english word translators use for what happened is "Transfiguration." The Greek word Matthew and Mark use is "metemorphothe", which sounds and looks a lot like the English word: "Metamorphosis." So, let that lead you to think of what you will. The Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, or probably my favorite, Franz Kafka's allegorical story, the Metamorphosis, about a man waking up one morning to find himself transformed into a giant insect.
We get some no less fantastic examples in biology. A caterpillar cocoons and then emerges as a beautiful butterfly. A tadpole, in its aquatic larval stage, turns into a land-dwelling frog; a starfish starts out looking like something somebody stepped on before transforming into the adult form we all know. Crabs, lobsters, and other crustaceans; snails, and other mollusks all participate in this mystery of metamorphosis.
Its a widespread principle of life that initial biological structures are eventually broken down to make way for the newer and stronger adult structures. A larva's form is best suited for growth and development, when when it comes time for things like flying and reproduction, the structures of the adult insect body are needed. A human baby can bend and flex just about any way it wants, and this allows it to grow at a rate that would burst an adult body, but when it comes time to feed yourself you need to be able to stand straight with a rigid backbone so you can walk through an often hostile world. The old makes way for the new.
I said all of that so that I would have the opportunity to say words like: pupa and larva.
But fun as that was, what we're really talking about is salvation. So to bring it back to Jesus: it's fascinating that Scripture uses this word, metemorphothe, transfiguration, to describe what happened to Jesus on that holy mountain in front of Peter, James, and John.
In that story Jesus' face shone like the sun. His clothes became dazzling white. Dead people congregated and started talking to him. A bright cloud overshadowed them as a voice from heaven said: "This is my Son, the Beloved; Listen to him!" But just what did Peter, James, and John see?
In one of his later letters, Peter insists what they saw was Jesus' true majesty. So, on the one hand, Jesus did not transfigure into something he wasn't before. No, he revealed that which he has always been: The Eternal Son of the Father. The disciples were simply given the ability to see Jesus more fully.
But on the other hand, we can truly say that Jesus' humanity did grow and change as every human does. He was at the egg stage in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, he became that larva crying in the manger. He was in that tadpole stage when he walked around the Temple as a boy. He was that caterpillar that roamed around the Earth. He was cocooned on the cross and in the grave. And He became that butterfly freed from the gravity of sin, death, and hell when he resurrected. Then, he flew back into the Father's embrace in the ascension. Jesus became more and more what he has always been: The Eternal Son of the Father. He was transfigured. It's all a beautiful mystery.
Fascinating, but what's this have to do with our salvation? Well, that union between Christ's eternal glory and Jesus' genuine humanity is the key to our salvation.
See, Jesus did all that not only to transfigure his humanity, but do make the same possible for all humanity. In him, we are initiated into transformation from an egg into a butterfly. Invited to travel through death and into resurrection. Why: To become more and more what we most truly are: Children of the Father.
In the conversation that follows, we will discuss further just what salvation is. We'll explore what it means to be saved and how this is tied to the relationship between faith and works. And we'll find that, as Romero tipped us off, transfiguration is the key that unlocks these mysteries.
[MUSIC TRANSITION TO:]
Julius: Thanks for listening to all things. We're excited this series. It's um, it's really cool to be able to hear directly from the words of Oscar Romero as we take, um, these few episodes to kind of dive in deeper to some of the theology that it can be found in the way that Romero preaches. And today we're talking about salvation, which.
I mean really the major concept and word in Christianity, especially for those of us who like here in Western Christianity and evangelicalism like salvation is like. Kind of the thing to talk about. Um, and here Romero brings up a very compelling point about salvation by connecting it to that passage in James about faith without works being dead.
And a lot of us from, especially from a Protestant background, might find ourselves resistant to the idea of emphasizing works as necessary to save us. And um, Rome does a really good job at kind of addressing that and. By connecting, I, I think in the story that follows, uh, you start to connect salvation to something like metamorphosis or I guess the Christian word would be like transfiguration as we see it in Christ, which is, uh, becoming more fully our transformed into more full versions of who we are in Christ.
And as you kind of start to make that link, it, it, we can start to see why faith and works need each other. In order to like form a fully like living new person, right? And so especially through those terms, um, and especially for people who might primarily understand salvation as, um, pertaining to what happens after death as to whether or not we go to hell or heaven, how can we begin to understand the word, even just beginning with that word salvation through this lens of kind of transfiguration and new life.
Kevin: where we need to. Reframe the conversation on salvation is precisely what you said, Julius, is a lot of times we frame salvation as first and foremost. What do you believe? Um, so salvation is primarily. I guess at best, at worst, the only, um, cognitive ascent of belief like I believe you know Jesus is Lord, and then that's good enough.
Um, and nothing else has required me, or I believe that, you know, I'm forgiven. Christ died for my sins. Start from going to heaven. And that's good. And salvation is primarily kind of framed that way and that's included and, but it's such a small part of it. And so, and there's, I mean, we can bounce these ideas back and forth, but like salvation being like a judicial and kind of having this kind of framework, but configuration is a better framework for understanding salvation.
And a Romero sees. . Um, he, he loves the, the Feast of Transfiguration and because in his context in El Salvador, August 6th, which is the date for the Feast of Transfiguration, is like a big deal in El Salvador. It's like a. There's a parade, there's a festival. There's like, It also has become a very kind of nationalistic kind of holiday in El Salvador, which I mean, think of like Christmas here, or I guess Easter or I guess other big holidays in.
The us um, the transfiguration August 6th is August 6th is not really a big deal. I mean, who many of, how many of us knew August 6th was the
No, it's coming transfiguration day that we celebrate. But ELs Salvador is a huge deal. Um, and that's actually where ELs Salvador got its name is cuz it means it's the savior, but it's the the savior seen as the transfigured Christ.
So, so it's in the context of El Salvador. So obviously Romero has just been growing up with this idea of transfiguration and he loves this. Um, but he's not the only one who loves it. A bunch of the fathers love the transfiguration, so, It's a story where Peter, James and John are on Mountain Tabor and they see Jesus, uh, transfigured, his face shown like the sun and his clothes became dazzling white.
And I love icons on the Transfiguration cuz
Julius: it
Kevin: shows like, uh, James and John kind of looking away and they're covering their
Julius: eyes
Kevin: and they're like, What is going on? And then Peter's kind of covering his eyes, but then also talking to Jesus like, Hey, can we set up three, three, uh, tent dwellings? Um, and.
It's, And then I, they hear the voice from heaven. They see dead people, Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus. And then afterwards Jesus says, Don't tell anyone the vision you just saw. And then the question is, what in the world did Peter, James and John just see in that moment? And there's such, this is such a rich Christology, but they saw something spectacular.
Um, and Romero highlights that they saw. , obviously Divinity in Christ. Christ revealed that his sonship with the Father, the voice from heaven, the Father says, This is my son, who I'm well pleased. Um, so he sees, they see a vision of God, but Romero highlights this also. They see hum humanity. True human nature, glorified and dignified like the flesh, his face shown like the sun.
If we were agnostic and believe that flesh is evil, then Jesus' face wouldn't be shining
Right.
It would just be something else. But Remember says, no His, his brown body was shown like the sun and his, his human flesh was dignified and glorified in this moment.
Wilson: it's not Raiders. The lost arc where the spirit God shows up in the flesh melts because it, Because it has to burn away for, Yeah, it, it lights up.
Kevin: Yeah. Um, and, and if you, if you, we can imagine this, the father sees this as well, Divinity revealed, human nature revealed as it should be, and the father is happy. And then the question is, why is the father happy? Why is the father well pleased? It's because this is the kind of people that Adam and Eve from the beginning were supposed to be.
This is human nature as God imagined it. And this is glorified humanity and. The transfiguration is a big deal cuz it shows like who this person is and this is an aspir. Romero Go, uh, a quote from Romero is the transfigure. Christ is the hope of all human beings in sense. Like, this is the direction we're going.
This is where we're, uh, who we're becoming and uses language like this, like demonization of becoming like, like God, because our human, human nature is carried up into Christ and even glorified in Christ. And so transfiguration. Um, metamorphosis. Transformation is the goal of Christianity. It is being transformed by this new life, being filled with new life.
And so if we understand salvation, to tie it back into it as being transformed. More and more into Christ. That that is what it means to be saved. That the original project that God envisioned from, for human beings at the beginning of time from Adam and Eve is to be these kinds of people. Then Christ brings us back, restores us to that original project, and gives us, uh, the possibility to be transfigured by his, um, life.
Wilson: That. So our podcast is called All Things because , I'm just trying here, there's a mosquito loose in this room, and I've, I've been bit four times.
Julius: I was about that.
Wilson: saw it flying over toward JU and now I've seen both Julius and Kevin are scratching. It is a heyday right now. What? Let, we'll find some way to bring that mosquito back into salvation what, But,
Julius: something there. Blood
Wilson: um, but.
That the gospel of Jesus Christ matters for everything. And when you, when you root salvation concretely in the New Testament. Um, and, and especially like rooted in the gospels and then growing out of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and the continuation through the life of the church.
Spirit that the New Testament talks about. Like, again, sorry. I was trying to like not get all like theological jargony. I would get more so pushing it back to where I was trying to be, which is way more concrete. Like look at, look at what Jesus does and says in the gospels. And the whole of the Gospel of John is structured as a recreation of the world.
It's structured after like seven signs that correspond to the seven days, and then on the eighth day, which is the first day, right, Another first day, like all this happens in a garden. I mean, it's really. It's if it's fun, like when you read it and you start to catch it, it's poetic and beautifully woven.
If I just extract it and just start listing it bullet points, it starts to sound like, Okay, John, that's kind of heavy handed the
Kevin: new creation stuff,
Wilson: which is why I don't wanna do it though. But I mean, it's, it's woven in such an like, and when you start to see it, it, it's like the lifeblood flowing through the veins of the gospel that Christ is recreating
Julius: There's the mosquito tie in.
Wilson: Okay. Nice. or that's a parasitic, right? there's, I, I feel like in my head it's, we're going to vampires point there's, a reason that vampires as a, as a parasitic parody of, uh, Okay. No, no. I like, I like classic horror too, I gotta stay on focus. Um, the recreation of everything, right?
And so, So salvation is everything being what God intends it to be in the glory and goodness of it. And so, and that means taking on divine qualities and characteristics because of the gift of grace. It's, it's, there is no, when it's right and good, there is no division. Or I mean, you could say like a conceptual division.
It's helpful to think about. A distinction, but really how it actually works. Just like, I mean, just like you can conceptually make a distinction between your brain and your heart, but if you sever the things, neither is all the way alive. Right? And grace is like the love of God that makes it all possible.
But even creation itself is coming from the grace of God. And so there's no real division or separation between grace and everything coming alive. Right. And that's why we take on. That's why Christ. Grows, glows, . It grew too, but I mean, but glows. And why? When the disciples really do like get caught up in him and what he's doing, then the church in acts starts to do the kinds of things that Jesus did.
And I know it. It freaks people out to think like deification. People are like, Ugh. But that's because we're so, I mean, it's almost like, yeah, that's because you didn't sit there on table.
Kevin: you
Wilson: know, But if we, if we'd been, if we'd had an experience like that, you see, and those that had experienced it, the saints that testified to it, one of their favorite images to help this, this does help us, is like the coal and the fire, the coal's, just coal.
You know, just like we're just dust, but we're dust that God has breathed into. And when you take the coal and you put it in the fire, it's just coal. It's not the fire. But when it's in the fire, it begins to take on the properties of the. Heats up, glows. It gives off warmth and light. Yeah. And in that kind of place, we are the, we are the channel for God's grace in the world.
We, we light up and we
Kevin: are, we
Wilson: give the heat and the light in a cold and dark
Kevin: and, and the coal can only stay, can only, uh, the properties of the fire can only be sustained in the coal. If the coal is in the
Wilson: fire. Yep.
Julius: Yeah.
Kevin: Once it leaves the fire It becomes more coal like
Wilson: And that's when, when you are unbelieving, Yeah. He could work. No miracles there because they had no
Kevin: faith.
Julius: Right.
Wilson: When we are unbelieving, when our, when there is no faith, we are not the, and again, this is, you can make a conceptual, distinct distinction, but salvation is when these things really come together.
Just like, the body is properly ordered and the blood is flowing. Yeah.
Julius: Yeah, so you, you were starting to talk about salvation there as that we can understand salvation as God kind of, um, making things right about like restoring humanity to like be, to properly and fully reflect God. Um, and so the word salvation always makes me think that like, it, it's always in relation to being saved from.
Something. Um, and if we're trying to push back against, it's just like being saved from like, it, something like eternal punishment or something and maybe being, and being saved from something even kind of greater than that. Um, uh, I wanna start to take our conversation to the word, like, we've made the connection here, or I don't know if you made it in the story or if this is something that Rome has made in sermons, but connection, connecting the word salvation to the word like liberation, that those two things are linked.
Salvation's, not just linked to transfiguration, but like in this episode we're talking about liberation. Um, and I'd love for us to dive more into that word and ask kind of like what it looks like for. What does it mean for salvation to have to do with liberation? Especially kind of given the context that Romes preaching from, like that word conjured up like it, it made kind of his detractors.
Um, connect him with like movements like communism and that was kind of something very threatening and to the, to the people of his time. And if you understand it kind of in that context, liberation is always understood as a liberation of a people that it's like communal beyond just an individual kind of transformation of like a single person, but liberation.
Understood. As for a community, how can, how can we kind of begin to understand. Salvation as liberation and as liberation, um, of a like community of people.
Kevin: Yeah. Um, I have two big quotes here, so I'm trying to decide whether, which one to read from Romero? Uh, Romero uses liberation a lot. Um, and like you said, there are. People, his hearers at his time, and even now that when they hear that word, there's like, Okay, what are you saying? It's one of those words, I mean, Christian theology is filled with all these words.
One of these words that kind of like, There's either like, Ooh, that is really good, or like, ooh, that's really concerning. Um, but Romero, he has a very specific use for it. And so, and he says that this word liberation, he wants to explain it clearly. And many, he says, Many are fearful of this word and many also abuse this word.
Um, but there should be neither cause for fear or abuse. And so here's a, a big quote. I'm gonna kind of quote it here. That way it can serve as the foundation of our conversation, but he says, The word liberation bothers many people, but it is the reality of Christ redemption. Liberation does not mean only redemption after death, so that people should just conform to the system while they are alive.
No liberation is redemption that is already beginning on this earth. Liberation means that the exploitation of one human being by another no longer exists in the world. Liberation means redemption that seeks to free people from every form of slavery. Slavery is I. Slavery is hunger. Not having money to buy food.
Slavery is being homeless, Not having a place to live slavery is mis. They go together. Christ does not want slaves. He wants all people to be redeemed. He wants us all rich and poor to love one another as sisters and brothers. No person should be the slave of another, nor a slave of misery, nor a slave of anything that suppose a sin in the world.
This is the content of this revelation, this doctrine, this evangelization, and. So he ties liberation. First of all, uh, he says this in another place. True liberation is when we, ourselves are freed from, from ourselves, from would it be sin from our desires, from, you know, whatever, like we said. So configuration is being transformed to be freely.
To be freed from ourselves, to not be self centered, to open ourselves, to now be God centered. Um, and he says that this is the beginning of true liberation, but it doesn't stop there. And then he says, after that, the person who has been truly liberated from themselves, Then becomes this agent of liberation for others, that he says, Now this person will seek to end all forms of, uh, self indulge, self-indulgence, all slavery, to the self slavery, to systems slavery, to all this stuff.
And he says that this is, So, and he, he critiques both sides. He says that there are liberators and he say like the revolutionaries who just love the idea of frame people, but yet that they themselves are still addicted. To their own devices and sins. It's like you are. Kind of like being, uh, duplicitous or you're being, you're not being, uh, you're not true liberators.
And then there's on this side it's like, oh, salvation, just, uh, salvation from sin and forgiveness, sin, but they're not working for, uh, liberation. And Romero critiques both sides that this is not the, this is not what salvation means and looks like, and liberation is tied up to. So there's a both end here.
A salvation from sin. Yes. And then also salvation for the sake of others. Yes. And so Romero does a I, I believe a great job of holding both of those things together.
Wilson: So I would like to kinda trace some things through on two different levels. I mean, it's the same thing that I'm, I'm, that I'm tracing here, but, On two different levels. One on the level of ideas because it is important for understanding Romero and his time and place, but also ours as we're gonna, if we're gonna learn from him and his witness for our day and time there, there are certain things that are varied.
I mean, it takes some parts, it takes some help in translation, you know, like Kevin's expertise. And stuff like that. But other places there's some like close connections. Like we're super frustrated with some things. Who or what do we look to for guidance in our thinking and in in our action? Right? So on the first one on that part, I wanna like go through the idea part and look at Marks.
Kevin: And, and
Wilson: where Yes, he uses and I, I really, I really admire the courage, uh, to use the word and reclaim it. Cuz one of the things that we're tempted to do is be like, Oh, that word, if I use it, I might get lumped in with so and so or, and we let so and so or whatever have that and. Or so we either just give that or we just avoid the potential, like kickback because I mean, it might be that we're just afraid of the conflict and it might be that we're just don't feel equipped to know like, No, I'm gonna use this word and here's why and So just to help with that part of it on the idea side, talk about, um, one of the ideas or the schools of thought that was influencing El Salvador, that Romero had a good read. , but there's also, you know, still alive in our day and one of the things out on option for how do we respond to our time, which is Marx.
So I think key for understanding what would be like a Christian and through Romero way of understanding what Marx is doing is to see. Like Marx was highly influenced by Haal, but uh, Haal split into like three different camps and there's like the idealistic, kind of like quasi theistic or theistic religious haal.
And there were the materialistic atheistic haal. And Marks was a haal understood. And Hale's idea is kind of like this whole all of reality and in Hael, like even God gets worked out through the violence and the bloodshed of history. This is, how even God realizes God's self and al the absolute ultimate reality worked out through the violent give and take and ebb and flow of, of history.
And so Marks takes that but does away with anything. Anything idealistic. And that doesn't just mean like, ooh, that's a great ideal. He means like intangible,
Kevin: right?
Wilson: And so that would be God and any other sort of intangible idea and squarely puts it in like the material. And so he attempts to, to read this through a materialistic, atheistic view.
But here's exactly where I would say and where CR. Christian Catholic Romar, Is that a word Romar,
it.
Uh, read on It would understand. That's precisely where hael fails to truly be atheistic. Um, and that's one, that's a consistent thing. Like if I would offer anything in trying to help people navigate thoughts and ideas, you watch for that.
And really, if you understand that what is bigger than us? Cause again, it's one, it's one thing to put as your ideal to do away with ideals, but nobody can do. Impossible and whatever you put, And again, nobody in the history, the best thinkers throughout history, nobody's done it, . Um, and uh, and that's exactly where Mark fails.
And it's whatever, whatever is bigger than you. that in any way transcends you or us, that you chase, that you put as the, the thing that's worth, whatever, that's worth sacrifice, that's worth worship. And in some places it becomes, it's what justifies violence. That's God. And so for, for, uh, marks, he's not truly atheistic, but just what plays the place of the Theos, the God is the material, the stuff, the, the control of manufacture, the control of the goods and all of that.
And so in Marks, this is where it becomes heat. I mean, not just justifiable, it's baked into a system as violence. And Marx's approach to it is even, and look, it's necessary to incite violence. so that becomes the thing that on one side, in, in this Marxist. That's a place where Romero sees people stay not liberated, still enslaved.
Do something that on on one end would be for the rich and the powerful would be worth hurting other people even to the point of bloodshed killing death squads.
Um,
warfare on the other side, it's, Well, let's
ROMERO (Salvation) - Speaking Audio (V1) - WIL SPEAKING (Starting Gate and Comp): stick
Wilson: with the wealthy and powerful. The material becomes the thing so worth protecting that we would do violence to ourselves and others.
And on the other side, the material is the God that it's so worth getting, that it's worth doing violence, not just to others that have what we don't, but even doing violence to ourselves in our own communities. And this is what Romero is warning. He's not just calling side. You know, just to repent because I'm right and you're wrong.
He's warning them and inviting both to liberation, to be free from chasing this God through bloodshed and this is his critique. Right? That's just quickly, and we, again, that was even longer than I thought, but this this is part
Kevin: so many
It's
Julius: a lot
Kevin: to
Wilson: unpack.
so talking through the level of ideas, but not taking that to the personal level
Julius: of
Wilson: salvation and, and seeing.
So this is the kind of liberation that Marks offers. That Romeros and our read would be like, okay, you might, and this is true, you gotta, one of the things, an engaging idea. Sorry, I'm not outta the idea thing yet,
Kevin: but
Wilson: one of the things for Christians and engaging the world of ideas, we have to be courageous and honest enough to be able to give, do where it's due.
And Marx was smart and there were things about capitalism, especially the capitalism of his day. Like I, I just, I'm doing my PhD at the University of Manchester. I just spent three weeks in Manchester and there's a Marx and uh, um, marks and. Ingles, uh, a museum there because that, there's a spot in Manchester where they used to sit and write because that was the place where on this side of the river they would sit.
And this is where the people that owned all the Manchester was the first, like fully industrialized city. In the uk and this is the side of the river where you would sit. And these are the people that own the manufacturing. And on the other side were just the labor camps. And it was, it, it resembled like a really, really bad refugee camp, but that's where people lived all the time because of how they worked and they sit there.
Right? And so in this, in his day with what he's seeing, he's really, really good at pointing out some of the evils of capitalism. Some of the greed that's inherent in that and the need to do something to put up some sort of guard restriction barrier on this so that it's not undisciplined and Right. And so his read on it's there.
But then this would be the critique. Do you really offer liberation now? Especially if we're not just talking about moving on up. Yeah. Right. To get a better house. But if we're talking about salvation, do you really offer that? Right. But we can't be afraid to give people their due where it is. This next bit I can do more quickly. And that's the more personal pastoral thing, right? So the idea and what we're tracing through, Sure. But if we're looking at it like history and, and philosophy marks and economics and all that kind of stuff, But now on our own salvation and liberation. What Romero's calling us to really is a, is a much
I mean, it's better. I don't think there's any, nobody, nobody's at this point going, so like, what do you guys really think? And where are you? So, but, but here's why. Better if we're thinking about liberation, you know, so much of a, we can easily and often in certain circles reduce salvation to just not going to.
Julius: Right, Right.
Wilson: But now, now like flip and it's, that's where, uh, I think Kevin was talking about maybe it was ju a judicial,
Julius: um,
Wilson: picture of salvation where, Oh, shoot, we're condemned, we're guilty. going to jail. Oh no. Yeah. Am I going to hell? There's, there's a, there's a certain layer of liberation that, I mean, so put it in to just.
Let's say like you've done something like you've manslaughter or, or serious theft or some, you've done something serious. You might be really going to jail for a long time a bad jail. Right? Not, not the cushy, like it's a, it's, it's just like a motel six, like bad
Julius: jail.
Wilson: Not just a mediocre hotel.
This is not where you want to be. right? So you're, you're in the court and the judge says there's not enough evidence or not guilt. We proclaim you're not guilty, okay? you're set free. So there's a layer of liberation there. You're not going to jail. But if you're still a super angry person and you don't have the dis, let's, oh, I guess I've stuck with manslaughter.
Not, uh, , uh, not, not theft. So
Kevin: you.
Wilson: You're a super angry person who cannot discipline do, and you have no tools, nothing to help you know what to do with your anger. You could go back out and you might commit the same crime because you are the same person. Why? Because you haven't fully been liberated. There are parts of you that don't know and trust God, and your head might be going like, It's wrong.
I don't need to. God's there, da da. But if there's another part of you that's like, Uhuh, I'm so pissed and this guy got to. Or at least be unconscious for a couple hours. Right. You're not liberated. There are things inside of you, and this is part of what, uh, no, flipping back to like Marxism.
This is part of what, um, Romero saw as the continued danger. Is you're just gonna shift it, but you're not, this is not gonna actually free our world from g.
Julius: Yeah.
Wilson: Um, we have to have a better God to worship, better thing to sacrifice for and to work for, and, there is in Jesus Christ, one that we could sacrifice and work for, that would lead us to sacrifice and work for each other together, not against each other.
So, alright, I'm flip flipping back to the personal salvation. You've gotta be liberated from being someone who would want to steal or kill or hurt mame in these kind of situations. That's another bigger personal and then, And this, So that one sounds great. Yeah. I think a lot of evangelicals would be like, Okay, I can, I'll at least entertain
Julius: that.
I'll track
Wilson: that far on the personal level. But here's where Romero would really challenge. Even there Like, we're still not done. Because this is God's.
world.
Right. And so great. Right? Great to, okay. You're not going to jail. Pardon? Mercy. Awesome. Now like sanctification transformation in your soul, right?
So that you can be in the middle of the, even these. Terribly trying circumstances. And you are not the ki, You are the kind of person that even there you are free to love. Even there, you're free to not strike, to not steal, to not whatever he's like, but still, Christ is not king of the whole world. And salvation and liberation has not come everywhere.
Now, the next, now we as people who are being transformed and liberated, let's. It won't fully come until Christ comes. Sure. But that does not stop us from recognizing, but that's part of what it is to become saved, liberated, free persons is to work together for God's kingdom. so let's remove, let's do what we can to change the situations that would make someone feel like I have to strike out and hurt you, or because it's you or me, or I have to steal.
Yeah.
Or my family's not gonna eat. Let's do something about these circumstances too, because that's where, Now think about it on the people that are on the underside when you're calling for this, if it's, oh, if the message is mixed, if it's, Oh, it's just faith. As long as you believe the right things, things will eternally be good, what's gonna give them hope?
That the people that have more than they need are gonna be generous people and actually share with you as long. That breeds fear and mistrust. And fear and mistrust is what makes the temptation stronger and stronger for us to choose to believe and to act the things that keep us locked in the prison of sin.
Julius: Well that's great cuz I think this very last point as we start to wrap this up was I was gonna. To draw our attention to that part in Oscar Romero's sermon where he says, You will not be saved if you don't work intensely for a better world. And I think maybe at the start of this conversation, that could have been it.
It's easy to receive that as such a harsh thing, especially if we're thinking in terms of like, you're gonna go to hell if you don't work for a better world or whatever. Um, but if we start to.
Wilson: Just let's just sweet. You already are That's.
Julius: exactly it. Yeah. Of like that, of places of hell.
Wilson: I, Sorry, I just, I, That was one of those, having done a podcast for as we have, I now realize, Ooh, that was one of those moments where it was clear in the room.
Julius: Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wilson: you already are in, Hell not, you already are going to, like, you're already experiencing a certain degree of hell now.
And do you want to extend that right.
So,
Julius: and that needs to be worked out of, like, so what you're starting to talk about here, if we start to see liberation and salvation more, I, I don't even wanna say broadly, but like more deeply as that, like, to be truly free is also to be freed from the impulse and like the sin nature to want to, It's kind of, it makes me think of like in, um, pedagogy of the oppressed where like in the kind of first chapter,
Wilson: I think that's the first time we talk about that. Right? So that's Pablo
Julius: Yeah.
Wilson: Plo.
Julius: Plo.
Wilson: Shoot. Did I just mess you up on that? How do
Kevin: no, no. I
Julius: don't remember. Anyway,
Kevin: I can look it up.
Wilson: Yeah, we gotta find
Julius: It's plo.
Wilson: I just thought the listener it would hear that might
Kevin: How low for,
Wilson: Right. If they wanted to check it out. And, and I figured if the name wasn't given, people would assume it was Romero.
Julius: Totally. So
Wilson: say it one more time, Kevin, for us.
Kevin: How low for Irie.
Julius: Yeah. But, uh, I, one of the, one of the key things, even in the first chapter is talking about like, the nature of true freedom and true liberation is that if the, if the oppressed becomes liberated and like the mind, the mentality of like oppressed and oppressor, that if they're not freed from that, They're not truly free because like once they're liberated, who's to say that they won't?
Like, if you don't work that out, then you just end up running the same cycle and become the oppressor yourself. So a, a liberation earned through violence and bloodshed, like doesn't work out that internal stuff.
Wilson: For support C history.
Julius: Yeah.
Kevin: You have kind of this like switch of classes where the bottom class and then becomes upper
Julius: class. Yeah.
Kevin: And then the upper class then becomes bottom class, but then
Julius: just
Kevin: kind of back and forth throughout history.
Julius: Right. Yeah. Cuz if violence is at the root of it, Like this cycle just kind of plays out all over again. And so when he, when he calls us to intensely working for a better world and like the kind of salvation that he's talking about is like us being saved from that nature, being saved from, and truly liberated from this kind of system of violence and oppression and, um, Kind of bringing it back, like that's why I think the transfiguration in metamorphosis image is so pertinent because that, I mean, I guess in metamorphosis it happens kind of on a more passive level, like your cells or whatever are working, they're changing.
But even in just thinking of like transforming like your body, right? If you're like working out, you don't just expect to like, you have to work towards that and that takes time and. In the way that our bodies are shaped and informed. That takes time and work in order to be shaped and informed into a new people who are free from these impulses to destroy and to oppress others.
We need to work that out. And that needs to be worked out on an individual, a communal, and like, um, uh, I don't know, systemic level. And so I think, I think that's what, hopefully that's how we can receive
Kevin: yeah, there's uh, um, I love that you brought up the passive element. Mm-hmm. . Um, so yeah, salvation is passive. It's, it's done to me from the outside of me, I e God. Uh, so that's the passive element, but then, Romero said there's the active element As well. And these two, um, need to be in balance with each other and right here, or like Romero.
Um, I, I wanna bring up, um, a video watch that of Dallas Willard and he about like how evangelicals he grew up. Evangelical with a capital e . But he says, this is something hard for Protestants to kind of even just imagine there that salvation has both a passive level and an active level. Like, okay, God's initiative, God's work in salvation.
Yes, we, that's no, not really hard and difficult for us to understand, but then what's our part like by grace, what can we do now? Um, and so this is, um, essentially talk about sanctification transformation. Participation responsibility, um, that grace requires us, something of us that we are now receive grace.
We have been saved, but now we have to be responsible with it. And so we kind of have to grow into. Who we already are in Christ, if that makes sense.
Julius: Yeah. ,
Kevin: like you said that the, the passive, uh, nature is like our cells begin to change, And then what the image that came to mind was like, and then we have to catch up to those cells that being changed in some like, weird way.
Yeah. That, um, another image that came to mind was Paul says, like, your. Your life is hidden in Christ, the heavenly places. And then when Christ is revealed, you will be revealed as well. And I remember, I think I was, I read that this past week and I was like, What in the world is he saying? It's like the, the true nature of Cam Petit will be revealed in Christ is revealed.
And so there's this, this interesting like true self in Christ that's hidden in the heavenly places. And then is my job here on earth to become. That. To kind of journey more and more towards that, to walk more in alignment with that. To become who my true hidden self is found in
Julius: yeah,
Kevin: kinda.
So that's the kind of passive and active elements to mind as you were kind of talking.
Wilson: It's like even, even the revelation, and that's why that would be the passive or from outside is the revelation that there is a true or Kevin. Even because who would, who would sit there and
say
and, and that it's promised? It, is. It's not like, like in God who's eternal, it's not like God's going, like, maybe somebody will figure this out.
Kevin: God's No,
Julius: no,
Kevin: no.
Wilson: I've got Like you, the truest Kevin is in me, exists in me. And in hearing that, receiving that and then responding is what allows you to be able to begin to like actually see and know that, Right. Just like. The coal in the fire. If you don't get in the fire, the coal doesn't light up.
If Kevin Portillo or Will Ryland doesn't get in. Christ, the true will, true Kevin doesn't light up and show to ourselves or to the world.
Julius: Yeah. Well it sounds like we, we've, we've covered like a lot of ground and given, I mean, you've given me a lot to think about in terms of like understanding how Romero invites us to look at salvation. So Will and Kevin, thanks for leading us in this conversation. Uh, we look forward to talking more about what Rome has to offer us in the, I guess, last couple episodes here.
So thanks for tuning in.