INTRO:
There's a saying, I'm sure you've heard it: "It always looks impossible until someone does it." We understand this truth, and greatly value it, when it comes to something like innovation.
Electricity, indoor plumbing, and flying machines all looked impossible to most of our ancestors. And we're glad someone did things that proved them to be realistic.
100 years ago every single standing athletic world record looked impossible.
When I was a kid, touch interfaces and video calls were the stuff of science fiction.
Then someone did it. So now we all do it, and think nothing of how wondrous what we are doing actually is.
The greatest things always look impossible ... Until someone does it.
In this series, we just want to help you notice how strange it is, then, that we tend to fail to appreciate this same principle when it comes to other things our age does not tend to value a much. Like ancient and religious things.
Why does the gospel seem so impossible to us, when history if full of saints who have done it? Who have lived in ways that show us what is really possible when we trust God's presence and help.
This time we explore how Oscar Romero can help us consider the possibility that Jesus is still very much present in the daily realities of our time and place, and if we can't see this, it might just be that we're not looking in the right places.
[TRANSITION TO ALL THINGS INTRO]
STORY:
[MUSIC BEGINS/CONTINUES]
Y en la segunda lectura también se habla de esta presencia cuando Santiago nos dice a los cristianos: “No quieran unir dos extremos irreconciliables: la fe en nuestro Señor Jesucristo glo- rioso y la acepción de personas”. Es inconcebible que se diga a alguien “cristiano” y no tome, como Cristo, una opción prefe- rencial por los pobres. Es un escándalo que los cristianos de hoy critiquen a la Iglesia porque piensa por los pobres. ¡Eso ya no es cristianismo! El cristianismo verdadero es el Cristo que le dice, por medio de Santiago, al cristiano: “Es irreconciliable. Si tienes fe en el Señor Jesucristo glorioso, trata como a hermanos iguales a ricos y pobres; que no te engañe la apariencia”
Es que muchos, queridos hermanos, creen que cuando la Iglesia dice “por los pobres”, ya se está haciendo comunista, ya haciendo política, oportunista. No. ¡Si esta ha sido la doctrina de siempre! La lectura de hoy no fue escrita en 1979, Santiago escribió hace veinte siglos. Lo que pasa es que los cristianos de hoy nos hemos olvidado de las lecturas sagradas, que deben re- gir la vida de los cristianos. Cuando decimos “por los pobres”, no nos parcializamos hacia una clase social. Fíjense bien, lo que decimos —dice Puebla— es una invitación a toda las clases so- ciales, sin distinción de ricos y pobres; a todos les decimos: “To- memos en serio la causa de los pobres como si fuera nuestra propia causa; más aún, como de verdad es: es la causa de Jesu- cristo, que en el día de juicio final te dirá que solo se salvan los que atendieron al pobre con fe en él: ‘Todo lo que hiciste a uno de esos pobrecitos marginados, ciegos, cojos, sordos, mudos, a mí me lo hiciste’”.
Translation of Part I:
God's presence is also a theme in the second reading, in which James tells the Christians, «Do not try to unite two irreconcilable extremes: faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ and personal prejudice» (James 2:1). It is inconceivable that people call themselves Christians and not have a preferential option for the poor, as Christ himself did. It is scandalous that Christians of today criticize the church because she thinks about the poor. That's not Christianity! True Christianity is what Christ tells Christians through James: «If you have faith in the glorious Lord Jesus Christ, then treat your rich and poor brothers and sisters as equals. Don't be deceived by appearances». (Applause)
Translation of Part II:
There are many people, dear sisters and brothers, who think that when the church says she is «for the poor», she is becoming communist and opportunist, meddling in politics. Not so. This has always been the doctrine! Today's reading was not written in 1979. Saint James wrote it twenty centuries ago. But we Christians of today have forgotten these sacred readings that should guide the lives of all Christians. When we say «for the poor», we are not taking sides with one social class. Pay close attention. What we are doing, following Puebla, is extending an invitation to all social classes, without distinction between rich and poor. To everyone we say, «Let us all take seriously the cause of the poor as if it were our own cause, or even as if it were the cause of Jesus Christ, which it truly is. For on the day of the final judgment he will declare that only those who helped the poor out of faith in him will be saved: "Whatever you did for one of these poor folks--the marginalized, the blind, the crippled, the deaf, the mute--you did it for me"» (Matt 25:40).
You ever wonder how some people from Jesus' own day missed it so badly when it came to recognizing and understanding who he was? According to the Gospels, this even happened with some of Jesus' own disciples. I'm thinking now of Luke chapter 9, when two disciples named James and John asked Jesus if he wanted them to call fire down from heaven to destroy a certain tribe of people who would not welcome Jesus because he didn't just want to visit them, but was also committed to ministering to another group that they hated.
Today, while many may not like institutional or traditional religion, its assumed everyone likes Jesus. But in Jesus' own day, he was a very controversial figure. I mean, the day he was crucified was not the first time people tried to kill him. Many loved him, yes, but there were others who tried to throw him off a cliff.
And the old adage that hindsight is twenty-twenty is a lie, one that makes it a little too easy to look back and assume that we would have recognized Jesus for who he really was, and that of course we would also be about the things Jesus would be about.
Think of it this way, Mary was an unwed peasant. So if the Incarnation were to have happened in our time, what would Mary look like to you? And so how would you, on first impressions alone, see her Son?
It's important for our growth in Christian formation too ask, in light of this, would you and I have paid them any attention, or would we have written them off? And if someone like that were to start challenging the way we think and live, what would our visceral reaction be?
It's important to ask, because he still shows up in similar ways to do these very things.
[MUSIC]
In theology, "Christology" means the way we think and talk about the truth and significance of Jesus, and the Christian faith is what it is because we balance the convictions that Jesus was truly God and truly human. So when looking specifically at the Incarnation, we cannot just talk about "the God that became human in Jesus," we also have to explore "what sort of human being God became".
But during the late-nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, theological reflection on the person of Christ tended to focus a little one-sidedly on Jesus' divinity. So it created some scandal when in the 1970's, and against this sort of theological backdrop, Óscar Romero published a pastoral letter which developed his understanding of the church's responsibility to the poor. Because in this letter Romero didn't just insist that people should be generous to the poor, but rather "identifies the reality of those who are poor and marginalized as both the way to understanding our world and the way to discern the presence of God and God's will in and for the world." Why the scandal? Because that means the kind of human being God became is a poor human being, and the way to understand our world properly is to become the kind of person who can see God's presence in the midst of those who are poor and suffering.
You can't make a claim much bigger than that. So how would Romero defend it?
In his teachings, Romero paid particular attention to the biblical portraits of Jesus's life, especially to those moments that happen between the Incarnation and Jesus' crucifixion. And after paying attention to Jesus' public life and ministry, Romero concluded that the face of Jesus Christ was to be found in the faces of the poor. In Romero's time and place, these were the campesinos, the poor and oppressed peasant farmers of El Salvador.
Romero states that
"We now have a better understanding of what the incarnation means, what it means to say that Jesus really took human flesh and made himself one with his brothers and sisters in suffering, in tears and laments, in surrender. I am not speaking of universal incarnation. This is impossible. I am speaking of an incarnation that is preferential and partial: incarnation in the world of the poor." (129)
Now, just in case you might start to feel defensive or wary that Romero is laying the foundation for something like a class conflict, let's balance this with another part of his teaching. Romero was capable or incredible nuance, and elsewhere he argued, "When we say 'For the Poor', we do not take sides with one social class, ... What we do ... is invite all social classes, rich and poor without distinction, saying to everyone: Let us take seriously the cause of the poor as though it were our own -– indeed, as what it really is, the cause of Jesus Christ, who on the final judgment day will call to salvation those who treated the poor with faith in him," then Romero quotes Jesus' own words from Matthew 25, "'Whatever you did to one of these poor ones–the neglected, the blind, the lame, the deaf, the mute–you did to me.'"
[MUSIC BEGINS]
So let's return for a moment to one of our introductory questions -- if the Incarnation were to have happened in our time, who would Jesus be, and would we have responded in recognition, acceptance, and love?
Romero puts it bluntly: "Look at the poor. How much do you love them? That will tell you how much you love Jesus."
In the conversation that follows, Julius, Kevin and I dive deeper into how Romero might help us name and deal with some of the things that block us from being able to hear Christ's voice and recognize his presence in our own time and place.
[MUSIC TRANSITION TO:]
CONVERSATION [Auto-Generated Transcript]:
Julius: Well, thanks for listening to all things. We're looking forward to today's conversation. Once again, this is Julius,
Wilson: A guilt trip. If you, if you stop this episode before the end, then you've, uh, you squandered our gratitude. That's right. . Thanks for listening all the way through .
Kevin: Five, five more years in purgatory for you.
Wilson: It's, we're being passive aggressive for your own good .
Julius: I'm joined by Wil and Kevin, who just provided those fun clips . Um, uh, but yeah, I, well, I'm excited we didn't get to name this in, starting out this episode, but it's a, it's, it's pretty cool to be engaging in these conversations about Romero, particularly with Kevin, because I know Kevin, uh, for, for a while now.
Um, Oscar Romero has been kind of your saint mentor and Yeah. You've really loved, um, kind of diving into his work, have really, um, patterned yourself after his ministry. So, um, being our Romero expert, In house here at Shama. Um, excited to kind of like, engage in conversation with you and learn kind of some of the insight that you've kind of gleaned from Rome's life.
And today we're talking about Christology, which is a, um, fancy but kind of self-explanatory, theological world word
Wilson: kind of. Yeah. Until you, until you, Well, it's like any word. The more questions you ask, the deeper the rabbit hole goes, the
Julius: different levels. That's true. But the most basic is kind of like how theologically, what our understanding of Jesus is.
Um, and then we'll dive more into that, uh, as to how that co that question can get more and more complex. But today we're talking specifically about, um, Oscar Romero's, Christology and how it's, um, centered in a christology of, as we've named it, kind of a crystal christology of the poor. That, um, that there is a connection between how we see Christ and how we see those who are poor around us, and how, um, those two, um, visions and the ways that we relate to Christ and the poor around us are related.
So just kind of kicking it off, um, what are some of the places in scripture and tradition that inform and shape Romero's Christology that is, um, related to this view of the poor
Kevin: around us? Yeah. For Romero, I think before I, we get into that question, I wanna frame it in this way. Romero was a pastor. Um, and I believe our first episode, we talk about the story in history a little bit.
Biography of Romero. And he, Wait, you
Wilson: wrote it, dude? . .
Kevin: They don't know that .
Wilson: It's in the show notes. Yeah.
Kevin: Okay. And I wrote it. There's
Julius: no hiding. .
Kevin: Someone did it. Uh, but Ro Romero, there's still time for you to go back
Wilson: and rewrite, so there
Kevin: you go. a Romero would, uh, Would, and with a sense of honor and, and like a healthy sense of pride, he would, he would've loved for people to remember him as a pastor, a shepherd, a person who has been commissioned by God to take care of the flock of God, the church to people.
Mm-hmm. . And he, he saw himself deeply, deeply, um, embedded as a pastor. And there are so many other places in when he is talking and, um, uh, you know, writing, he doesn't necessarily see himself as like, a professor or someone, like a teacher or someone in like an academic setting. Mm-hmm. . Um, but he was, I mean, he got his, you know, doctorate and all that stuff.
So he is a very intelligent person, but he always, so all that to say is that his theology, his intelligence, his um, ideas and concepts all came out in his ho. And so in order to understand Romero's Christology, for instance, he didn't write like a book on Christology, but he preached Christology. And so in order to understand Romero's Christology, you had to go and listen to his sermons, which all have context.
Yeah. And so he preaches, um, Christology throughout.
Wilson: Yeah, I mean, just more cred like, and he's in very good company there, Chris. I mean, the origins of Christology, right? So breaking that word down the study, the talk about Jesus. Yeah, the Christ, right? Mm-hmm. , the origins of our Christology is from sermons.
Yeah. Yeah. For the first. Like number of centuries, the best theologians mm-hmm. , the, the people that did the best Christology did them in sermons. Mm-hmm. we're talking like John Christ, Stone, St. Aga, Augustine, or Augustine, depending on how you're, how you taught to pronounce name. We follow that. Yeah. Right.
And so this is really a, in, in the person of Romero, you see a retrieval of something that needs to be retrieved recuperated is that this is the best way to do Christology and theology in general. Yeah, no,
Kevin: for sure. Which is even more profound cuz he, he would preach this to anybody. Mm-hmm. , everybody who gathered in the parish parishes.
And so it wasn't just to like educated folk that he preached Christology. It was like, no, to the farmers and to the workers of the land. He would preach. You know, if you listen, look at his sermons. They're very like, well researched and even well quoted. And he quotes in cyclicals and even like, uh, the popes and theologians.
And so he makes the things of the faith, the traditions of the faith accessible to mm-hmm. , all people. Um, but in one of his addresses, he actually, uh, visited, uh, Louvain University and he gave a lecture to actually university students, and he's talking about the situation in El Salvador. Mm. Which at the time was very, very violent and very, very tragic and dark, and it was on the brink of Civil War, and it actually happened after Romero was assassinated that mm-hmm.
El Salvador would go into a civil war for 12 years, from 1980 to 1992. And Edward Rome wanted to stop that at all costs. And so he was invited in 1980, so like, uh, probably a month or two before he was, uh, gonna be like shot, um, while administering the sacrament. Mm-hmm. . And he gives, uh, this address to these students or to people who are, uh, gathered there.
Mm-hmm. . And he talks about his, his Christology here. And so I want to, it is a fairly long quote, but here's the quote. It's. I want to propose the intuition of Vatican two that lies at the root of every ecclesial movement of. . The essence of the church lies in its mission of service to the world in its mission to save the world in its totality and of saving it in history here and now.
The church exists to act in solidarity with the hopes and joys, the anxieties and sorrows of men and women like Jesus. The church was sent to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contr of heart to see and to. What was lost. And that is a, that last part was a quotation from Luke four 18, um, and then also 1910, but there he draws from, you're asking about scripture passages.
Mm-hmm. , Luke four is a big one for Romero. Cool. Um, that Jesus, this says Jesus at the temple. He, uh, picks up a squirrel from Isaiah, right. And he says, uh, the Holy Spirit has, or the spirit of the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. Mm-hmm. , um, to proclaim liberty to the captives. And so he uses this.
Um, one of the many starting points for Christol, his Christology, is that Christ came, uh, especially and precisely for the poor and to proclaim liberty to those, um, who find themselves there. Um, another one that he used in that address is from Exodus three, nine. Mm-hmm. , which is, this is the context where, uh, God says the cries of the children of Israel has come to me, and I have witnessed a way in which the Egyptians oppress them.
And this is another place where he links that. Uh, this is why the father sent the son was because in the same way that Israel was crying out, because the Egyptian was oppress, were oppressing them. So the people, the Israel was, were being oppressed by, I mean, sin, death, um, hell, uh, disease, all kinds of evil atrocities.
And so the father sent the son in as a, mm-hmm. , uh, to save and to heal that.
Can you walk us
Julius: through, um, I love the scriptures that you pointed to, and I love that you connect how, um, that you both emphasize that this christology comes from like his context, that it comes from preaching, which is not like a, like, I mean, at, at best the office of like, priest, pastor, preacher, like involves.
Like it's lived in , like calling that, it's not like ab like doing theology in the abstract, but kind of, Yeah, yeah. Um, working things out concretely and how, like the context that he was preaching in, um, and like trying to connect that with the stories in the scripture that he's shaped by that. Those two things connected together, like do a lot to shape how he receives the scriptures and like that there is a tradition beforehand that sets this.
Um, and so you've named a couple of scriptures here. Can you walk us through, um, maybe for some people who might not be convinced that that is, um, like explicitly a call to, um, cuz I know later, I think maybe you, you, you say this in the story, but like pretty explicitly, Romero makes this connection saying something like, Look at the poor.
How much do you love them? That will tell how, how much you love Jesus. And so for some people who might be down with the idea of like, Yeah, Jesus came to. Save all of creation, including the poor and like calls us to care for the poor. Like how, can you walk us through how, um, how and why Romero makes that step, um, even, even further that like, not just like, oh, we take care of the poor, but like how we look at the poor around us is, uh, is a mirror to how we actually see Jesus and that maybe that they are a place that we're able to see like the presence of Christ
Kevin: now.
Yeah. Uh, that highlights other, other passages that Romero utilizes. And these aren't original to Romero, but mm-hmm. , Um, other people, Christians in history and tradition, even contemporary, use these scriptures. Um, but Romero, uh, In one sermon he preached on Matthew 25. Mm-hmm. and he links, um, and he makes notice or gives notice and emphasizes the point that Jesus identifies himself with those who are precisely hungry.
Mm-hmm. , those who are precisely sick, those who are in jail. Mm-hmm. , um, and Romero says like, Jesus did not identify himself with the top of like the social class or the top of the, you know, the oligarchy. Mm-hmm. . And he was talking about like El Salvador and government, like Christ did not mm-hmm. , uh, identify himself with that.
He identified himself precisely with like, whoever, whatever you did for the least of these poor ones, you did it to me. And so Mero sees that in Matthew 25, though, that's another place. Christ identifies himself. Um, he also loves, uh, that's a part in St. Where St. Paul says. Christ who was rich. Mm-hmm. became poor for your sakes, in order that you might become rich in God.
Yeah. And so Christ empties out his, his rich, his richness so that those who find themselves in poverty, um, can become and be alive with richness in God. Yeah. And so he, he links, uh, that, So this ties into what we talked about last time in our, um, theology of Preaching, that the incarnation where the father.
On into a poor, uh, Jewish girl, uh, Mary. Mm-hmm. becomes human. Mm-hmm. , um, not in like precisely the, the kingdoms or the political powers of herd or Caesar, but it's in exactly in the Jewish, uh, girl, in a family. That there is also the basis where, um, for Jesus, for Christianity and Christology, that if. If you refuse the poor, if you neglect the poor Romero, say that is not Christian theology, That is not Christology, uh, because you have neglected something, part and parcel to the very nature of who Christ was.
Hmm. .
Wilson: I got, I had a, a really good discussion with a guy, I think it was like two weeks ago, fairly recently, where the question was raised like, But who are the least? Right? And, and they were starting off with a place like, you know, from my engagement knowledge of scripture. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I know Jesus identifies with the least, but it's not super clear who the least are.
Uh, so we talked through the scriptures a little more. Yeah. And. You know, in, in Matthew 25, He, he, yes. There are places where for sure the, It's not like, it's not like anyone is because of some accidental or superficial, like trait of their existence. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. how much money you have or the color of your skin, stuff like that, you know?
Mm-hmm. , it's not like anybody's excluded from it. And yes, there are places that extend it to those that are poor in spirit. Yeah. Those that are broken and downcast. Yep. But in Matthew 25, he also clearly says like, those who are thirst. Those who are naked. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so when you give a drink of water to the thirsty, uh, when you clothe the naked, you know, whatever you do for the least of these mm-hmm.
you do it for me. Mm-hmm. , you know, and those are red letters. Yeah. That's right there. This is Jesus himself saying like, this is, this is where I will be and these, these are the least. And I, and I'll be there in the midst of them. And when we were talking about it, you know, preparing for this conversation, um, I just noticed how often Romero quotes from Luke mm-hmm.
Cause that's, that's a consistent theme in Luke is the reversal. Mm-hmm. , Right. That when the kingdom of God comes, things get turned upside down. Mm-hmm. , you know, so like Mary Prophesize early in Luke mm-hmm. that, uh, those that are high up will be raised low and those who are low will be raised up, which is a leveling, Right?
Yeah. and, and thinking about that theme in Luke and how often Romero moves there, um, and even Romero's own life, you know, we talked earlier episode about how he lived throughout the rest of the week as a pastor. Yeah. You know, just where he was, where he was living, doing his work, where he was resting was hospice.
Yeah. That he consistently put himself in the middle of the people who were dying and those caring for them. Um, and then the way he, Carrie, as, as brilliant as he was and as gifted as he was, that he carries this out as a preacher, not mm-hmm. , as, you know, a high up academic. Yep, yep. Theologian. Uh, all that made me think about in Luke at the, um, early, early on the, the.
instances of people recognizing Jesus. Mm-hmm. are like shepherds cuz the angels lead them to it. But it took my mind to, uh, and, and those who are high up early in the gospels tend to try to squash him. Like Harry tries to kill him. , you know, before he can even get going. Um, and Har was in a position of power if you're not, He was, he was one of the rulers, uh, in that region in that.
So, uh, uh, anyway, it took me to the story in Luke chapter two when Mary and Joseph have been told certain things about their child. Um, they've seen it come to fruition. Yeah. Um, , which, by the way, this is totally tangential, but I saw my favorite comic of the last, like 10 years. I saw a couple weeks ago that, um, it was, it was Mary Jo, it was the holy, it was the holy Family, Mary Joseph, and Jesus, when Jesus was like a toddler, and Jesus asked.
Mom, where do babies come from? . And, and Luke looks, or, and Joseph looks over and goes, Yeah, Mary, where do babies come from?
But, uh, anyway, uh, That aside, Mary Joseph, uh, they've been told certain things. They've seen it come to fruition to a certain degree, and then it says like, when the time had come for them to offer the child mm-hmm. to offer sacrifice for the child in accordance with the law, Moses, which would've been when Jesus hit a certain age, they made their way to Jerusalem, to the temple to offer the sacrifice that was called for in the.
and they came and Luke just says, it's kind of in passing if you, if you're not kind of introduced to the nuances of this, you just miss it. Mm-hmm. . Cause Luke says they came offering. Two turtle doves, a pair of turtle doves, or two young pigeons. Mm-hmm. , which as it was required in the law, which if you, if you go back to the law, there was a bigger sacrifice called for mm-hmm.
But most people couldn't afford that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the law says, and if you cannot afford this, then you can offer two turtle doves or two young pigeons. Mm. So even Maryanne Joseph, What they bring is the sacrifice of those that are less fortunate. Yeah. The poor. Yep. So the Holy Family was in this kind of social position.
They come into the temple. Yeah. And you also have to, The temple was this center of life. Yeah. Period for them. Yeah. You know, so just like there are very few moments where you can go to a shopping mall and it be totally empty. They're like, there weren't any times of the day that you went to the temple during normal hours and it wasn't busy.
Mm-hmm. . It was always a busy place. And so here comes this, you know these, these Galileans mm-hmm. that the people that lived in Jerusalem kinda looked down on the Galileans, cuz they're not in God's holy city. Jerusalem was even up on a hill. Mm-hmm. , Right? So they literally looked down on the people from the north, even though they're geographically north.
They looked down on them cuz Jerusalem's on the hill. Right? The Galileans come in, they don't have the cultural centers, all that kind of stuff. So they, they come to the hill bringing this sacrifice, not the full sacrifice. And most people don't see that anything special happened when the Son of God offered the sacrifice of dedication.
And, but there are two people that do. Mm-hmm. , uh, Simian and Anna. They notice of all the people that came in and out that day, of all the sacrifices that were offered, of all the business that was transacted, there were two people that recognized something and they prophesy over Jesus. You know, and that just made me think, what is it about them?
Mm. That allowed them to recognize, and part of it was they were devout people. Yeah. They were there in the temple genuinely seeking God in their worship. Yeah. For their whole lives and in genuinely seeking God in their worship. That made them the kind of people that most, I mean there were, who knows how many, but there were lots of people there conducting business that day.
And just like Jesus' baptism, most people saw nothing. Right. But, but Simmy and Anna were able to recognize something because they had eyes that were conditioned, they were trained that would be open and able to recognize God's presence even in the poor there in Jesus. And so, So even at that point, right when Jesus is the poor kid, Yeah.
Being brought to the temple, they're able to see something of the divine glory and maje.
Julius: That's beautiful. I think that, um, so a lot of us on this side of. Like the story of Jesus', like life, death, and resurrection, um, can jump so quickly. I, I know a lot of kind of growing up, so much of my conception of Jesus jumps to like, Oh, Christ is like the, the king. And so all of like images that pop up are kind of like, Splendor and riches and glory that like, that we can gloss over the concrete details that Jesus was born to a family that was not noble in status or like had riches or access to like power or wealth.
And that that's, um, I think. For any of us who might hesitate to make these, these jumps. We, we have to recognize that like where we are historically on this side of where theology and tradition has developed is that we take a, we we take a lot of things for granted that weren't assumptions for people who were doing theology back then that in the days of C system preaching, they were still trying to make sense of this and they were closer to kind of the concrete mm-hmm.
details of everything. And I love that. Um, That this whole like kind of bringing it, bringing it back to Romero, both what Romero calls us to, to, to examine like how, what our relationship is to the poor around us and kind of asking ourselves, would we be like Simian and Anna? Would we have the eyes to see if, if, if Christ were in our midst, in the poor around us, requires us to be up close with like the poor around us, that it's not a.
Like I can, I mean, this might be just an imagined thing, but I can imagine that some people like, um, in Christian circles or like in the church, like, wouldn't hesitate to be like, Yeah, we should take care of the poor. But that, um, their way of doing so that they're content to kind of do so from a place of safe distance and that safe distance.
Um, Doesn't afford us the opportunity to kind of like, uh, like if, if, if we were to take the words of Jesus seriously, that like that whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me. And that if we're kind of like to, to tease that out and to see that like, oh, if we were to take this as seriously as the poor around us, like carry the presence of like, that we were to treat them as if that was Jesus themselves.
If that was Jesus in our midst, like we gotta see the disconnect between like, Why would we wanna do that from afar or like, or why would we think it's sufficient to like, throw money at Yeah. Them or like, and or even that kind of us, them distinction to be like, Oh, it's, I'm content to kind of like give a few dollars or whatever.
Yeah. To some something like afar, but not to get involved with the stories in the way that Rome is like living with like these people and kind of getting to know their stories. And so, um,
Kevin: yeah, Romero, uh, you reminded me of a place where Romero says he, he is, he's going through Math 25, and he says, How can the, how can the church, um, the bride of Christ mm-hmm.
neglect to hear the voice of Christ. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, who would think like, Oh yeah, the church wants to. The voice of Jesus. Mm-hmm. wants to be with Jesus, but in the context of Matthew 25, you're like, Oh, actually no, not there. . Right, right. . Yeah. You know, it's just, And Romero's opposing the question, like, why would you refuse another avenue?
Yeah. And perhaps the best avenue. Yeah. To know the face of Jesus, to encounter Jesus in a brand new way. Yeah. That is completely, um, in a way that creates unending wonder in awe. Yeah. It creates mystery and beauty. Um, Romero would say, That's precisely with the, you know, he is language of the boys sleeping, um, on the streets with the newspaper as their blanket.
Yeah. Or the malor children, or the mother working, um, the single mother working, you know, at the market selling coffee beans. Right. Or her like five children, you know? And so it's, it's those precisely those concrete. And this is, there's no abstraction for Romero. Like he's thinking of real life people when he is preaching this.
Yeah. Is that concrete way of life that Romero, So Matthew 25 is not like some ideal or abstraction for Romero. Yeah. It's like real people. Mm-hmm. with real faces, Uh, people. He, he walks to and f from his home to like the archdiocese's office to the parishes. Like he drives in cars. Like he's seen this like in real life, like every.
Um, and so, yeah, I don't know if you wanted to go. No, definitely.
Wilson: Oh, yeah. Tagging off that. It's, um, actually the, the, the process or the pattern, I'm about to like narrate it's. It's happened enough so that it's getting to the point in me where I have to now be intentional to not jump to conclusions with people and assume I know their story before I know their story.
Mm-hmm. , but, but it's happened enough times where I've sat down like face to face with someone because they wanted to talk because they don't feel close to God anymore. Mm-hmm. , they're struggling with their faith. I used to feel like my faith was alive. I felt connected to God some, but, Right. And there are a handful of things that can happen.
Mm-hmm. , you know, some of it might, you know, this is part of our drawing from the, the resources of our tradition. Yeah. But for a different podcast episode or, or Yeah. Whatever, Um, the. Part of it could be, Yeah, God's doing this on purpose for your own good, you know? Mm-hmm. , just like when you're a, when you're dealing with kids, you use candy or ice cream to get them to do what's good.
Mm-hmm. , you know, but eventually they have to grow up and do what's good because it's good. Not because they're gonna get candy or ice cream. Right. You know, so often God's at work there removing the feelings so that we love what's good. Mm-hmm. , not just so that we're addicted to the good feelings that we get when we do what's.
Yeah. You know, and parsing that out, getting, getting into, you know, the deeper nuances and making sure that we're really chasing the right thing. That could be part of it. Mm-hmm. , but also, this is where I say, I also have just asked, well, tell me about your journey, your life and what is, like, what is your Christian practice now?
You know, how are you seeking God? Where are you looking for God? And often you, you know, one of the things I would just point out is well look. Here's a place where I could see, you know, some, some room for improvement and Jesus himself said, This is where he's going to be. Yeah, right. He told us this is where I'll be.
And so maybe go spend some time there. Just, just go be intentional. Spend some time there and see Yeah. Like if this open stuff's up or this reconnect. Yeah. So,
Julius: Well I think, I mean that's a perfect it. It pretty much already preemptively answers the question I was about to ask, which is for, um, For those of us then who, who might like upon examination struggle to like, if we're honest and if we look upon, if we even do consider like the poor in our communities, like w if, if we do the honest work of self examination and find that in that sense our christology is off that, that we are not like filled with compassion or reverence.
Like the poor people around us. What would Romero kind of offer or invite us to like in order to, um, as like a corrective to like realign our Christology with what
Kevin: is, Yeah. Uh, I wanna share a couple. There's, in my mind gonna go very different directions here, so I wanna, uh, remain focused here. Mm-hmm. , I have two quotes that I definitely wanna share.
Um, and this is, um, , this is, remember Murro is as a here, Romero saying this in a sermon as your pastor. And so receive it in, in that kind of light. Um, so here's the first one he's reflecting on Luke 19, one through 10, which is, uh, the story of Jesus in Zaki. Mm-hmm. , which,
Wilson: which gospel again. Oh, Luke. Oh yeah, that one.
It's all about . No one is all about reversal, right? Yes.
Kevin: Luke 19, uh, Jesus Zakk, he's on the tree. Um, uh, you know, he calls out to Jesus. And, um, essentially l Zaki ends up saying like, he's, who's a tax collector? Who, everyone I've wronged like I'm gonna. Uh, pay back fourfold. Mm-hmm. and those who I def defrauded or something, that nature.
I'll play it back half or something like that. Mm-hmm. and Romero's, uh, riffing on this in his sermon, and then he, he, this is where the quote begins. So it starts, quote, This aspect of the gospel is very interesting because it helps us to see that true conversion expresses itself, indeeds. It is not enough just to say that one repent of a.
It is also necessary to repair the harm that was done. Mm-hmm. , sisters and brothers, the gospel calls us to such a conversion. A conversion that doesn't just remain in sentiments, but that leads to total changes and teaches us the need to share and quote. Um, that's, . Uh, I, I, one I find that just fascinating.
Just the need of repentance requires also reparations, . Yeah. Or, or absolutely. Uh, expressing itself out indeeds. And this is not like something. , uh, Romero's not thinking that this is something, something outside of repentance. Yeah. But it's actually part and parcel to the nature of repentance that the, what the key is realize is that confessing Jesus as Lord and being willing to follow means that I have to make amends, have to repair the harm that I've done.
Um, and so Romero is saying, This in the context of those who ha who are wealthy, who have a lot of resources mm-hmm. , what is the conversion that Christ is calling you to? Hmm. What is, what is the repair, the harm that you, you personally must do, right? Um, you repent of the sin of whatever sin you may be.
Now, how do you, uh, repair. . That's the first quote. The second quote is a is much shorter. Yeah. But this is, uh, receive this as more like a, a contemplative question or a spiritual direction question. Yeah. A question of examine. Um, and here's Romero. He says, quote, a wealthy Christian. Mm-hmm. will find the beginning of conversion in this personal question that person should ask.
Why am I rich? And all around me so many that hunger, um, again, receive that as like Pastor Romero as like your pastor, your, your shepherd. Someone who cares about the nature. Mm-hmm. the, the nurturing of your soul and your Christian devotion. Like, ask yourself that if you find yourself, you know, in that realm of a wealthy Christian, He said that's the beginning of the conversion experience.
Why do I have so many resources and are all around me? There are those who don't have as much resources as I do. Um, and link it back to the previous quote, What is the conversion that Christ then is calling me to do? Yeah. What are the acts, um, of mercy works, of mercy, of compassion that I am called to now extend right to those who don't have as much resources as I do.
Um, and Romero is, is he's, you can see him just pastorally trying to guide people. He's not like someone who's beating people's like you, wealthy people. You, you know. Yeah. You good for nothing. Sinners, You're gonna go to hell and all this stuff. He's like, No, he's, he's trying to guide them to conversion. To repentance.
Yeah. Um, and he, he, he's also gonna turn to the poor and say like, You too must be converted and repent cause you. There are other places in his sermons where he call, he calls out the poor. He's like, You should not steal. Mm-hmm. , you should not commit adultery. You should not murder. You should not do this.
The ver, the vices you should also avoid because the virtues are also accessible to you. Oh, the virtues are not just accessible to those who are wealthy and rich. The virtues, you the poor. Have complete and total access because you are in Christ and Romero. I mean, this is why I love Romero, man. Yeah. . So it's just he, he's a pastor that hits both sides.
Yeah. But is. calling to repentance in the conversion, both sides of the aisle.
Wilson: And that, that's a huge part of the raising up in, in the ancient world, the virtues were not accessible to the poor. Mm-hmm. . Right. I mean, it was even assumed in certain places like Aristotle. Yeah. So not just like some odd corner, like, like dominant
Yeah. Um, cultural forces. It was assumed that the poor didn't even have a full soul. Mm-hmm. . And it's, it's the Christian revolution that's coming out, like in this pastoral voice saying to them, Yeah, this is right. Available to you. Um, mm-hmm. , again, pulling this all together in Christology, right? Cuz this is what Romero's doing.
Pastorally is, is speaking about Jesus. And that's one, one dimension or layer of the word christology. It's, you know what we say and believe. About Jesus is just what I mean. Chris Christology starts off with Christ, right? And ology is like log offs or word or thinking about what we, what we reason and say about Jesus.
But the, the benefit of good Christology is you become a microphone of Jesus and. You when you do Christology Well, when you speak rightly and well about Jesus, you facilitate the opportunity for other people to know him in the way that, from that communion, from that experience of Jesus, mm-hmm. , they're able to do christology themselves to talk about it, then breaking it down to another level.
Um, Uh, Christ Yes. Is a title that has been given to Jesus. It's not a surname by the way. Mm-hmm. , Jesus Christ. It's not . Yeah. If Jesus had a driver's license, Christ wasn't like Yeah, exactly. It wasn't his last name. It's a title. Um, and, and really it means to be christened. To, to be christened means you're smeared with oil and to be smeared with oil was part of the Jewish right ritual that set you apart for a specific purpose.
You were christened for something, you were smeared with oil to mark you out, to set you apart for a particular thing. Mm-hmm. . And so this is, this is the question for what the Messiah. The savior in that sense, the Redeemer, um, was like, and or linked to a Christ, one who was Christian for a specific purpose.
Mm-hmm. . And then there were, there were, you know, several expectations about that. Uh, the key one being to liberate people from Rome. Mm-hmm. the most specific threat. But then Jesus comes and in taking this mantle and being the Christ, the one who is anointed by God for a specific purpose. Also, Yeah. Right.
He doesn't just meet our expectations about what the Christ is going to do. Yeah. In the way he does. It also brings clarity to us about what the Christ is. Mm-hmm. , what the Christ has been christened, anointed, set apart to do. Mm-hmm. tells us straight up to bring good news to the oppressed and the poor.
Yeah. How do you do it? His life? Yeah. His teaching, his healing. The who he lived with, who he hung out with, his death, his resurrection, all of that is how he carries out the office of Christ. Um, and so what, what Romero in doing Christology mm-hmm. in these sermons. And so in that is inviting others to. To commune in a way that they could do Christology.
Mm-hmm. , um, Romero's inviting through, through the story. Uh, and this is what scripture always does, is provide an opportunity, again, not to get info about Jesus, but for us to, to commune with Christ in a way like, like as far as the effect. And the reality of our communion with God was just as real as the first disciples, communion and experience with Christ.
And so, um, sure different time, different place, but as far as the effects and the reality of it, just as real as Lazarus, not Lazarus, uh, Zs the short guy, not the dead, the short one. Not the dead one. , both of them are raised up, but in different ways, different ways. Um, in Z we're invited to see like how this communion happens to lead us to that point where we can do our own Christology, because at the end of it, the, it, it, when.
When Romero's witness clicks for us, uh, we'll start to see that what Zach Heus does at the end of his encounter with Jesus is Christology. Mm-hmm. in, in repairing his harm, in repenting and repairing the harm he has done. Um, because there, there's a reversal happening in this mm-hmm. . So in the story, Z starts off in a tree.
Uh, looking down on Jesus. But Luke has told us, even though he's in a position positionally, he's in a place to look down on Jesus in a tree. Tax collector, wealthy, More resources. Mm-hmm. In reality, he's a small man. And the first thing Jesus says to Zaks when he walks up is get down . But then from that, it's not get down, shame you get down.
So down here I can actually eat with you, right? I'm going to your house, let's eat. And in the, And then bringing that and doing what? In doing what? In being the Christ. Yeah. In that moment to that person, he communes with Zaks and from that, yeah. Zaks recognizes this is communion with God. This is the kingdom of God.
And he gets pulled into that and so his response Yeah. Is, is where he starts to do his own Christology. Yeah. Which was super interesting because in that time and place, the way when you proclaim someone is Lord Caesar is Lord. Then what you would do is find ways to honor that Lord. Yeah. And in that time and place, kind of the, the standard ways to do that is you give a big offering.
Mm-hmm. , or you make a sacrifice, or you erect a statue and the center of town with a plaque, with an inscription about all the great things that the Lord has made possible for this town because of their patronage, or hold a huge banquet. And you put that person in the seat of honor and you invite all the other honorable, powerful people you could.
And the more honorable and powerful people you get around the table, the more honor you're giving to the Lord. That's in the seat of, of position and authority. Mm-hmm. . But what Zaks notices about this Lord, this guy, the character of his kingdom, the way I honor him is to repair the damage I've done. Is to pay back those that I have defrauded and this, this is him from his communion with Christ.
Yeah. Living in a way that he's doing his own Christology speaking and extending the work that Jesus as the Christ came to do, participating in the work that Jesus, the Christ came to do.
Kevin: You revealed to me another layer that I of romero's that question, why am I rich And all?
Wilson: If you, if, if revealed is the right word, let's, let's give it to the Holy Spirit. Right? The Holy
Kevin: Spirit through, through you will reveal this to me. Why? Why am I rich and all around me so many that hunger? Um, uh, I mean that's such a great question.
Cause Romeros, I mean posing that to the wealthy Christian. When you were, uh, Crystal, Crystal Lodge, Well, Theo Theologizing on Christology. Christologically crystallizing Crystalizing.
Wilson: How do you, how do you make that a verb? Yeah. Crystalizing doing Christology in Christology,
Kevin: uh, when you're talking about Jesus and Zakk is, um, uh, I just imagined that is precisely the question that Jesus himself.
Was at, was, was, was living out. Mm-hmm. , Why am I the son so rich in this communion with, with the father in the unity of the Holy Spirit and all around me are people like Zaki, people like Peter, people like, uh, this poor Samaritan woman, People like this who have no, have not tasted, but have not, uh, been failed with that kind of communion with God, that Jesus himself, this is a question that he lives.
I, This is precisely why I came , because him being rich became poor. He distributed his communion with the father through people like Zaks, through people like in his ministry. Why am I so rich and all around me? I mean, that's the world man. That's the world that's hungry, hungry for rich communion with God.
Julius: Of that. Both of these responses, um, bring us back. Uh, no surprise here to the table if that the, the point of it, the point of this Christology is convenient with Christ, and the Christ invites us to communion with God and others. That it's, uh, the, the kind of, the advent scriptures of the high places shall be made low and the low.
Lifted high that it's like a, that the destination at the center is like the, is fixing these inequities that bar us from sitting at the same table, like being at that same level that see the all things
Wilson: logo. . Yeah, ,
Julius: Yeah. See, Refer to our logo. Um, Thanks Janelle. Yeah. Yes. Shout out. Um, no, honestly, seriously, take, take a look at that logo.
It's. It's, it's a beautiful representation of the table and, um, thanks again so much for your time. Um, Getting back to the intro, if you've stuck around at this life ,
Wilson: um, the chosen, those of you who have proven ,
Kevin: those five less years are purgatory for
Julius: those you who are afforded that privilege for
Wilson: our, uh, Calvinist brethren and sister, those who have demonstrated your election.
Julius: Yes. Anyway, jokes aside, thanks for listening. That's, uh, all we've got for the conversation today. But as always, Love to direct you to the show notes and our website, shama d.org, where we can, um, provide some more resources to for further engagement in this topic and, um, in the conversations we've got ahead on Romero.
Looking forward to metaphorically seeing you there.