INTRO:
There's a saying, I'm sure you've heard it: "It always looks impossible until someone does it." We understand this truth, and greatly value it, when it comes to something like innovation.
Electricity, indoor plumbing, and flying machines all looked impossible to most of our ancestors. And we're glad someone did things that proved them to be realistic.
100 years ago every single standing athletic world record looked impossible.
When I was a kid, touch interfaces and video calls were the stuff of science fiction.
Then someone did it. So now we all do it, and think nothing of how wondrous what we are doing actually is.
The greatest things always look impossible ... Until someone does it.
In this series, we just want to help you notice how strange it is, then, that we tend to fail to appreciate this same principle when it comes to other things our age does not tend to value a much. Like ancient and religious things.
Why does the gospel seem so impossible to us, when history if full of saints who have done it? Who have lived in ways that show us what is really possible when we trust God's presence and help.
This time we look at how St Oscar Romero allows us to think of something like simple human words actually speaking of a transcendent God, and how this also shows not just preacher, but all Christians how to do the work of speaking of God without engaging in manipulation.
[TRANSITION TO ALL THINGS INTRO]
STORY:
[MUSIC BEGINS/CONTINUES]
[Episode 2: The Church of Hope, Nov. 27th 1977, Oscar Romero = 3:09-4:28]
Jamás hemos predicado violencia, solamente la violencia del amor, la que dejó a Cristo clavado en una cruz, la que se hace cada uno para vencer sus egoísmos y para que no haya desi- gualdades tan crueles entre nosotros. Esa violencia no es la de la espada, la del odio; es la violencia del amor, la de la fraternidad, la que quiere convertir las armas en hoces para el trabajo. ¡Qué hermoso llamamiento podíamos hacer aquí, hermanos, cuando el trabajo abunda en nuestras campiñas, no se vaya a convertir en odios, ni en luchas ni en sangre! Desde el domingo pasado, estoy clamando para que las cortas de café, de algodón y de caña sean un canto de alabanza al Señor, no esperando leyes, sino ins- pirando en el amor de fraternidad que une a los dueños y a los trabajadores. Que hagamos de nuestra campiña un himno que haga tono con la generosidad con que Dios nos regala sus cose- chas. Esta es la meta, hacia esa paz caminamos.
Translation:
"We have never preached violence, except the violence of the love that led Christ to be nailed to a cross. We preach only the violence that we must each do to ourselves to overcome selfishness and to eliminate the cruel inequalities among us. This is not the violence of the sword, the violence of hatred. It is the violence of love and fraternity, the violence that chooses to beat weapons into sickles for work (Isa 2:4). What a beautiful call we would make to you here, sisters and brothers, when work abounds in our fields! Do not change this work into hatred or struggles or bloodshed. Since last Sunday I have been crying out that the harvests of coffee, cotton, and sugar cane should be a hymn of praise to the Lord. Do not wait for laws, but be inspired in the fraternal love that should unite owners and workers. Let us raise from our fields a hymn that is in tune with the generosity with which God grants us these harvests. This is our goal; this is the peace toward which we walk."
Notice that we have a host of distinct terms for different kinds of speeches. When it's an expert delivering specialized knowledge to students, we call it a "lecture." If that expert delivers the material on a popular level from an expensive set and it's streamed all over the world, it's a "TED Talk." If it's an actor displaying the inner world of a character, it's a "Monologue." If it's an author delivering some of their written work it's a "Reading," and on and on, and any or all of these could become a particular and ubiquitous form of speech known as "Nonsense."
This episode, we look at what St. Oscar Romero can show us about the peculiar form of human speech that happens in a worship gathering when someone delivers words that expound on some part of the Bible and seek to shape the daily life of the congregation in light of that Scriptural text. This cluster of words might include poems or stories or bits of teaching, but we do not believe any of those terms fully express what's happening. So we do not call this a speech or a lecture. We call it a "Sermon" or a "Homily" or, sometimes, a "Message."
There is a reason this form of speech gets its own distinct name, and to many it must seem unreasonable.
Because a sermon is not just a re-reading of the written words of the Bible, nor does it claim to merely speak about ideas or feelings or facts or anything, really, that we could know or observe from our daily reality with just our time, attention, and wits. But, to paraphrase the great 20th century Protestant theologian Karl Barth, we call this a "Sermon" or "Homily" because we believe these words reveal to us things about God because these words, more than just just conveying information, actually conform to the Word of God to such a degree that they carry God's presence.
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So the observant but unconvinced might justifiably ask, "But I thought y'all said that by definition, God is unknowable?"
Yes. And this tension between God's mysterious transcendence and our speaking about the Divine has gotten the attention of some of our most famous philosophers. Because of it, some have wondered what part of humanity is capable of knowing and speaking about God. Some, like Descartes, said this must be the soul, and others the mind, because these have a greater natural capacity to deal with eternal things that transcend our limited bodily existence. Others ranging from St. Augustine to Ludwig Wittgenstein and Jacques Derrida have wondered about words themselves. How can simple human sounds, many of which seem so arbitrary -- think about the sound of the word "doorknob," how can something that sounds so silly "knob," convey anything about what is eternal?
These are serious and labyrinthine questions in which the best of us, if we choose to enter, seem destined to get lost. Which is why the reminder Romero offers us is like light expelling the darkness of a haunted maze. St. Romero tells us that these might be necessary and interesting questions that are relevant for many dimensions of human speech and action, but for Christians, thinking specifically about sermons, these really aren't at all the right questions.
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Romero reminds us that the issue isn't really centered on the human side of the equation, but on God's. The question is, "Is God the kind of God who would be content to let us wander in ignorance, or would God act to communicate with us where we are?"
And if our thought on this question really is Christian, then we also see that "God's side of the equation" isn't way off in some abstract spiritual realm where only the most elite spirits or minds might venture, but in the dusty roads and overlooked byways of Galilee and Jerusalem. This is because Christian faith confesses that God has met us in Jesus of Nazareth and so used his human words and actions to reveal to us who God is.
So the validity of preaching begins with the character of God. And once we center our questions on the person of Jesus, when make our way to asking questions about the human words and actions that are used to continually pass on God's revelation, the question that does matter, then, is do our words or actions reflect the goodness and truth and beauty of Jesus of Nazareth?
It's not really a matter of whether mind or soul or body is properly or essentially fit to communicate divine realities, because Jesus speaks with all these things. So rather than it being an issue of essence, it is a question of formation. It is a matter of whether or not our message sounds, looks, and feels like Jesus.
So in this episode's conversation, Kevin, Julius and I talk about St. Oscar Romero as a preacher who could describe a good sermon as nothing less than, quote, "the actualization of the word of God" without guile or irony because he had first allowed God to conform his own thinking and acting to the thinking and acting of Jesus. Then we look at how Romero's own formation in Christlikeness made him someone God could use to help the peasant farmers under his care imagine how they too could live so that their work and words would speak of nothing less than God.
CONVERSATION [Auto-Generated Transcript]:
Julius: Welcome back to All Things, listener. We're excited to kick off the, um, new set of conversations for this new series. I know it's, I think this is probably the first episode where we're, uh, reformatting the show a little bit, and we're gonna kind of just focus on the conversation piece. And today we're picking up from, um, talking about Oscar Romero and his theology of incarnation and what that has to do with his homo Lytics, like his view on what preaching is.
And one of the quotes from. This particular story that precedes this conversation that, um, um, I wanna read over us just to kind of, um, set the stage is that Rome says you are the church, each one of you, wherever you are, needs to live the life of faith fiercely because you are the true microphone of God, our Lord in your context.
Um, so picking up from that idea, I love that image of, um, being the microphone of God and how Rome places this emphasis on, um, the, the lived life of the church. And so can you talk to us more about the connection between incarnation, like the way that we live our life embodied and preaching and, um, what does that mean to be the microphone of God?
And how does that push back on maybe some of our typical understanding of sermons as mere dissemination of information? Or like an effective speech or as a, a comedian once put it, uh, like a, kind of like a book report. That's also standup comedy.
Wilson: what
Kevin: comedian was that? . Yeah, so I, um, Romero is, uh, one of my good heroes and great heroes of the faith. And. I love this metaphor that he offers through the church and he offers to our conversation and it's this metaphor of microphone. And I, and perhaps we can stay a little bit here, uh, for a little bit.
Um, but essentially what he he's preaching. He's always keeping in mind the people he's preaching to. And the, the majority of the people he's preaching to are, uh, peasant Salvadorians, who are obviously, um, Don't have a formal education. Most of them do not, um, have not got to, you know, formal school and most of them are, are illiterate and can't, uh, really read, um, there's even some stories that some of them don't even know how to sign their own name.
So even like when they go to sign papers, um, whatever for the government, they just like give their thumbprint. Um, and so Romero is in this kind of context. And so it's a, a very. Interesting and fascinating context to be preaching to, but he uses his, uh, analogy of microphone and he kind of breaks it down.
Essentially what he says is like, I mean, we're all speaking into microphones right now. Right? and it's amplifying our voices, um, and it's carrying them through and in his context it's making something. Uh, accessible and amplified so that all people can hear it. It makes it accessible to the great majority.
Um, and without the microphone, then we will not, we could not be able to hear, um, the clarity and the nuances and the tone of Romero's preaching. And he uses the microphone to talk about, um, God in Christ. And so he links it with the, the doctrine of incarnation. And what he says is the best microphone of God is Christ.
And so if you take that in a metaphor, even further that the father speaks in the microphone, um, through Christ mm-hmm . And so whatever the voice of the father. uh, says and does is amplified and made accessible mm-hmm through the microphone. That is Christ. And what Romero was saying is that his entire life, his being his nature, his teachings mm-hmm um, his birth, his laying in the tomb lifeless.
Yeah. His, you know, the entire course of his life is amplifying the voice of the father mm-hmm and that his very life is. The father's preaching to the world. Um, and so he links that with, uh, his preaching and incarnation. And then like with the quote, you, you, um, highlighted mm-hmm then Romero takes that even further.
That's saying, okay, that's the best microphone of God is Christ. And now the best microphone of Christ is you. The church, the body of Christ mm-hmm and you amplify and make accessible the voice and word of Christ in our context, in our everyday. And so he links, that's a cool kind of chain of events that kind of goes from the father into the, through Christ, into the church.
And that he's saying you people. Whether you are educated or uneducated, whether you can read and not read, whether you can write or not write, um, you are the best microphone of Jesus Christ in your world in your particular context. And so you are charged to live that kind of life out. And so that's kind of a cool metaphor.
He kind of links there.
Wilson: Right? So what I love in Rome Romero is, I mean, when, I mean, I mean it's there in the word incarnation mm-hmm right. Yeah, we we've we've set it up that way. Julius, Julius, like intentionally gave us that softball, you know, right there it right up with the word incarnation, because that's that's so.
Characteristic of Romero or maybe, I mean, maybe it'd be better to flip it and just say like, that's why Romero is such a Saint mm-hmm . Yeah. Is the way he incarnation, you know, like lives embodies and proclaims. Right. The guy like he, he was, and he could even say is the preacher that he is because he embodied, like, he received the word and embodied it himself the way he did.
Right, right. Yeah. And, and in that he, uh, he's pulling together, like the way the incarnation reconciles and pulls together humanity and God, you know, heaven and earth, he's pulling together so much in that. Right. There's, there's so much scriptural context. Mm-hmm, that, that allows us to understand what he's contextually doing there.
And in his time and place, uh, you know, he even says like the most important part of. The, the sermon, the homily is the exposition of scripture, but you look at how he practiced it, what he said and what, and how he actually lived it. You know, mm-hmm, , I mean, most of the week he lived in a hospice. Yeah. You know, and, and he, he was intentional about in his time, in the hospice, listening to the voice of God, as he listens to the Christ of the sick and the dying.
Yeah. And it's in living there and listening there that he's able to go and proclaim what he does in the pulpit.
And in, in pulling all that together, you know, he's, he's, um, in, in a very succinct, clear, and, and actionable way, he's proclaiming like the, the whole scriptures in that, the way Jesus. Perfects and, and sums up the whole scriptures. RO Romero can do that with that incarnation understanding of, you know, receiving the word, and then we become the microphone or the medium by which the word is extended to the rest of the world.
You know, mm-hmm cause you think like what he's exposing there as the word of God begins with creation. And so when God speaks, it's not like a radio show mm-hmm just giving out factoids. Yep. Or spin it. It's definitely not like listening to talk radio this week. Yeah. um, when, when God speaks stuff happens.
Yeah. Right when God speaks reality responds. Oh yeah. And when reality responds, it grows in beauty and it grows in complexity. When God says, let there be light, light goes. Yeah. When God says, let there be dry land. Yes. When he says, let the dry land produce vegetation. Yes mm-hmm . Yeah. And that's the, the picture of what's good.
And right. And then in the gospels, it there's a reason consistently in all of them, there are new creation themes to what Jesus does, right. There are echoes to creation, right. Because what sin and fallenness is, is not hearing and responding to the word of. Yeah. Um, not being what we were created to be, that's the kind of inauthentic, like existence that sin is striving for and Jesus sets all this, right.
It's the clearest in the gospel of John. I mean, it's just like, On the nose over even the whole structure of the whole book, but then especially like when Jesus is betrayed in the garden, crucified in a garden, raised in the garden, mistaken for a gardener, you know, it's like, Hey, the world, the cosmos is being recreated here through the, the actions of the word of God.
And so when we, this is why he says to be a microphone, right. Mm-hmm , it's not just, Hey, get the facts down. Yeah. And if you go somewhere else and, you know, oppress your brother, Right or steal from your sister, but then hand them the app, like the accurate bullet point facts of the gospel. You are not a microphone of Christ, you know, and this is, it's almost, it's a, it.
the metaphor has to in our minds stay rooted in Jesus and the scriptural story. Yeah. The way it was for Romero, if we're going to get it. Yeah. Right. And this, and for it to make sense and to, to see his consistency. Yeah. Because if we don't keep it rooted in that scriptural context and in Jesus, the way Romero did.
Yeah. Then we see inconsistencies when he says like, live the. You living the faith is how you become a microphone of Christ. Mm-hmm ex extending it. Right. Um, if we don't hold all that together, we, we see, well, okay. That's a mixed metaphor. Yeah. Maybe kind of a weak one, you know, in public speaking we critique it.
Yeah. But if you see, no, no, no. This metaphor is rooted in this story. Right. Then that's exactly the right way to like, hold the consistency between it. You, you hear you receive the word and you live it and you become the means by which God's word is, is extended to other ears. I love that. Do
Kevin: I? it. Uh, um, one of the books we are utilizing for Romero is, um, uh, utilizing, uh, Dr.
Agao cologne Emrick, um, who wrote a book called, um, uh, Oscar Romero's theological vision Uhhuh. Um, and one of the, the ways he, uh, articulates this. to kind of bring bridge that gap of like, okay, we have the information, the, the, the sermon, the preaching, but then also, how do you like live that out? Mm-hmm and then he, um, Romero and Edgardo kind of pulled this together by saying, imagine Jesus is the best sermon.
Yeah. That the father gave mm-hmm . . And so in my minds, like, it seems like you're mixing categories. interesting. The sermons are supposed to be audible voice, you know, something I hear. Yeah. That's, that's the sermon. It's whatever, you know, the, the sound waves coming outta my mouth and you can point to it in the context, like that's the sermon.
Yeah. But to say Jesus is the best sermon, um, it puts it incarnate. But it's flesh and, and bones and blood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it discernment becomes the very life. And so, and I love how you linked that with Romero and how he was literally, um, a microphone of Christ because of the way he lived.
I love that story where, um, he chose to live in the hospital. Uh, and it's similar to what Pope Francis did, um, when he was, um, You know, or, or ordained appointed as the Pope is that, especially with archbishops too, there's always like a, a designated Archbishop residency or designated Pope residency. So you can live in like the really fancy, ornate building.
And then for archbishops, there's also one reserved. And so when Romero was appointed as Archbishop, uh, the church was like, oh, here's your housing? And remember said, Hm. He's like, I'd rather live over there with those nuns who are, um, running this hospital who are caring for those dying from cancer. And he says, I'm gonna take a little room in that building.
And so he chose that, you know, and that's the kind of person Romero was that he rather a no to the fancy building, living in luxury and go live with nuns who are caring for the sick and dying and actually taking just a little small corner in the room. Yeah. But then he would, uh, eat and live and, um, Pray and minister to people who are dying and also to the nuns, um, there's even just episodes of him, uh, eating with nuns.
And they're like, they burst out into songs, singing something in Spanish and Romero just kind of joins them along. Yeah. You know, and just kind of that, having that kind of imagery, that that's the kind of Romero that embodied the life of Christ.
I love
Julius: that if I have pre , I've got a couple of things that, um, I'm thinking a lot about microphones specifically right now. Cuz we're picking this is, this might be a force connection, but I'm just like really attentive to we're recording
Wilson: right now. I'm sitting here going like, let's see what happens here.
Cuz like homo Lytics is one of the major fields of my like dissertation. Yeah. Microphones. Microphones is jam Romeros is Kevin's that's it's so funny.
Julius: This is gonna happen. This has gotta be it's gotta the sweet spot. It's gotta. And it could, I dunno, forgive me if this sounds forced, but I was just thinking this whole time of like, I can hear we're recording in a church space right now and there's construction around us.
Mm. And, um, there's part of me is like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I can gate all this noise out. I, I don't know if I can block all this noise on the recording, but then it got me thinking about the microphone metaphor for two reasons. Cuz one, um, this is where it's gonna feel. But I think there's something to it.
um, in, in kind of prepping for this, I was like, uh, like, will Kevin speak right up into the mic? So that like, so that, um, you were getting as direct of a source, like from your mouth mm-hmm like to block out as much noise as possible. Um, and it just kind of made me think of microphones, like. when you will.
We're talking about how we receive, the
Wilson: word, if I'm tracking, I like where you're going. Yeah.
Julius: of, it's kind of like for, for a microphone to have the most clarity, like you're always, depending on what kind of like pickup pattern the mic is or whatever, like the best sound quality like has to be. There's a certain kind of proximity that the mouth and the voice has to have directionally to the microphone.
Right. And so for a microphone to like, to be effective and to like cl to have clarity, to represent the person who's speaking, mm-hmm, , there's gotta be a certain proximity to the person who's speaking. And so that's kind of like, I love that metaphor in, in the sense that as a good microphone, we've gotta be positioned like close enough to yeah.
To the mouth of God to receive. And to and I also love, oh, so many microphone mode of Bush cause I was also thinking, I love that I, with your stuff on, um, ho Lytics will and how you talk AB a lot about how grace doesn't erase our nature, but that like, there's something about like the, the burning Bush thing, right.
About like, um,
Wilson: That's that's Noma. I can't, I can't take credits. No, no,
Julius: no. But you talk a lot about in terms of preaching , you know, well, this thing you invented , but I, I think
Wilson: same Maxim is like, you're, you're lucky. I'm a Christian and I'm I forgive that plagiarism.
Julius: That's really funny, but that's kind of what I was chewing on was.
Um, where in this metaphor of the microphone, do we make room for like the particular, like character of the person and, um, and even like their context. And that's what made me think on the character thing. It's just like, as much as a mic can have like a certain clarity to represent like the, the source that it's recording or amplifying like each mic, depending on how it's wired.
Like they're gonna have. Different styles of microphones are gonna color the sound a little bit. They're gonna pick it up in a different way and they're gonna represent it, um, with different kind of shades of warmth and color. Um, and, and so I love that because like a microphone is like, even, it's just like it as a recording person.
Like there's so much variety. And as you get deeper into it, it's kind of like coffee or like tasting the nuances in coffee, right. Where it's not just a microphone, but you can, you can sense the different like, oh, this kind of condenser mic picks up this kind of nuance in your voice or whatever. And so it doesn't erase character, but it allows the, just, just as God.
With the people who like wrote these words in scripture like that, God, doesn't just, um, ki I don't know, like the, the writer doesn't go into a trance, but God like breathes into the embodied life and the character of this person, their writing style, their experiences. Yep. Then you think about context too, of just like, um, so much of the life in recordings comes not just from the microphone, but the room that they're placed in and that.
The the same, like guitar cab, micd up in the, uh, I'm taking this metaphor so far, but I think there's something to do. That's that's why it's rich. of just like the, like, you can take the same, like gear, like guitar, cab, like pedals and stuff. Have the, like, have the settings the same, but. Um, let's say you're trying to emulate someone, right?
Like slash his guitar tone or whatever. And you, that's funny. That's
Wilson: exactly where my brain went. I know the appetite for destruction
Julius: tone. You can look at pictures of how slash sets his Marshall amps, what pedals he's running. You can have his exact Gibson, but it's never gonna replicate the sound of that amp in that particular room at that particular time, because.
Even the air that's moving in that space is very particular and that's picked up by the microphone and that's translated onto recording. Yeah. And so the con, like, that's why I think like the context matters too, that like part of us living this embodied life that preaches Christ takes into account, all those things, our character, our experiences, and amplifies, even the context around us.
Wilson: It takes me back to, again, the creation story and notice the deep relationship between the father and the son, or the other way it's been said is like the father. The father's word. Yeah. The Lagos, which is Jesus and in creation, the more God speaks, the more happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The more individuation, the more diversity, but also the more beauty and complexity.
Yeah. Right. It tends now in a, in a fallen world. Where sin is there where we're not hearing and responding, or we're not in time with God's cadence, you know? Yeah. When the music and the melody has been lost, then it tends to be the more diversity, the more complexity, the more conflict. Right. Right. But when God is speaking and, and we're really together attuned to God's word, the more complexity, the more beauty there is.
Um, and so, and if, if Christ is the word, the Lagos, then all of the infinite possibilities of creation are already actual and real in Christ mm-hmm. And so, and then this, this is why Romero says weird, like the extension of the incarnation yeah. Is in Jesus of Nazareth. Things were reconciled healed and put right again, potentially.
And when we join with him yeah. Then there's infinite variety and that's still it's it. It's still joining the same song. Right. And everything finds its place. Mm. And so we are all like you, you could pluralize it, you know, if, if he's the log OS, we're the log. Oy. We are, we're the words or the notes in the symphony that is Christ.
And in that place, we, we find our true self, our true individuality and express, who we really are in a way that, uh, that reflects genuinely Christ. Goodness, not just my desires, my will, my, you know, fears.
Julius: So, I mean, I love how much, um, how much life we, we got out of this metaphor, even in this conversation.
And so to kind of move that even further then, um, to, I guess not, not problematize it, but to address kind of like maybe a, a lingering kind of like problem point is what the question would be. Then if. Being the microphone of Christ is like, has to do with like, if preaching has to do with like the embodied and incarnate life.
And we can't divorce that from the person's character and context. Uh, does that mean we can hear the word of Christ properly in UNC Christ? Like people, like how, uh, how do we deal with that tension? If that link between like the person preaching. And the, and the words are, are so strong. Like what do we make of that?
When we hear preaching from people whose character doesn't reflect Christ
Wilson: the, well, the first place my mind goes with that is the gospel of mark. Huh? Um, I've been doing a little, a little study there and the last time through it struck me how often mark puts on the lips of people. Ooh, words that are so much fuller than they understand.
And the cl it's true of like Peter it's true of, you know, character after character, after character. Um, and in fact, up to the crucifixion, the human characters, uh, almost all of them get Jesus completely wrong. Right. Um, the only characters that get him right are demons. And then the human characters that come closest are blind.
Oh, but then the first human character that, that gets Jesus. Right. And actually says the same thing that the father says is at his, at his baptism is one of the soldiers that's crucifying him. Ooh. And that's one of that. This will, this will set up, we'll put a pin in this word scandal. Mm-hmm cause this we'll talk about that in the, the next bit, you know, mm-hmm but that sets up the scandal of the gospel and what God is doing in Jesus is the, the good news doesn't start.
And the world doesn't begin to be healed and reconciled because we got Jesus. Right? It's just God's action. Mm-hmm . And so even then, because of God's action in Christ, even then in that moment, the people close to him are drawn into something so much bigger than they even underst. Right. And so a person who's complicit in Christ murder is at the same time speaking words that are so much bigger than them pilot does it, you know, it's so, um, now that's not to excuse, right, right.
That's to that's to clarify the nature of the gospel, but then that also at the same point, you, you see that through that clarifies that for us to really hear and respond to the gospel means genuine repentance. Mm yeah. A change mm-hmm that we start to recognize, Hey, this gospel, we preach. There are things that I'm saying that are accurate, but they're bigger than I currently know and understand.
And it's always my job to allow it, to transform me, to expand me and make me more like Christ and to continue to journey in Christ likeness. And so I, there, I think it's, you know, uh, to bring it to Romero in one of the, the sources that Kevin had me read. Which was awesome in preparation for this points.
Um, it starts off with Mount Tabor mm-hmm , which is the, the mountain of transfiguration where Jesus goes up with his disciples and he lights up mm-hmm mm-hmm . And even as they're seeing all these incredible things, there's auditory. Uh, data too, where the father says, listen to him. Right? Cause still, even now with this dazzling vision and you see it with Peter, if you don't listen to him, you're gonna mistake and you're gonna misuse what you're seeing.
Mm-hmm , which is exact. You gotta keep him together. You have to keep hearing. If you're gonna see clearly and then speak and act truthfully on the other end of it. Um, and the author tried to make a link between Mount Tabor as this proclamation where Christ is seen and spoken of, right. Where Christ is seen and proclaimed, uh, or visualized and preached on Tabor to Romero.
And he says that there is continuity there, but it's a dotted line. Mm. Because you've got, you've got the conquest, you've got the misuse, the, the, the oppression, the genocide that happens in those places. Hmm. But there are. Fear points, you know, he says, yes, there are, there's clear continuity, but it's dotted line, you know, from there to Romero.
And that comes to be in those places where the, you know, the gaps in the, the dashes. Yeah. They're still bringing Bibles. Mm-hmm , you know, they're still setting up pulpits and talking mm-hmm and there're, there's a bit of it kinda like this IUR. Telling the truth, but not participating in it yet. Yeah. Yeah.
And as we, as we begin, begin to genuinely hear, listen to him and then participate, that's when it comes together. And, and it's not just accurate information, but the actions and the life lights up and the, a fuller like table mm-hmm of fuller manifestation in glory of Christ is herd and
Kevin: seen. Mm yeah.
Rabbi Romero's, uh, Two fair words that Rome loves to use is, uh, verbs , uh transfigure and convert conversion. Hmm. Um, and so he, he definitely uses amount of transfiguration mm-hmm um, but then he links that again. Let's think, uh, God. Uh, the best microphone, God is Christ mm-hmm and then best microphone.
Crisis is church. And so he links the transfiguration is between like the father and son, but then he links it and says you church need to be transfigured. You are called to light up you are called to, uh, be converted. And that means where you know, where your word actions in life are all like in a, a complete alignment in Christ mm-hmm, where they're all, uh, in harmonious, uh, relationship with each other.
And so he constantly calls people and especially in his context, I mean, man, I feel for Romero sometimes when you read his life, it's just such a dark time. Mm-hmm . And for him, it felt like everyone was literally out to get him. And he was against the world. Like the government was against him because he was preaching like this, his fellow priests were against him because he was like, sounding like a Marxist and a communist mm-hmm um, even some of the revolutionaries were against him because they didn.
It's like, okay, we're done listening to like, just preach love and like this will go away. Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so in Romero just felt like, like any person who preaches and, and a pastor that feels like your words are landing on deaf ears and you keep like working and working, but seems nothing that seems to be happening.
And so Romero was definitely in a time where it just felt like everyone was his enemy or like they. Attributed to him as like their enemy. And he would have found very few friends, uh, in the way he was preaching, but he always called that. And so he was saying transfigure yourself. Um, Convert yourself back to the gospel.
Um, be changed, be transformed, do not settle for me. Mediocrity use soldiers who are taking up arms and in the name of liberation in the name of God, you are literally shedding blood. You need to stop because this is not the way of Christ. Um, the people and the government you need to, the rich, the wealthy, the oligarchs you need.
If you call yourselves a Christian, this is, and he goes on, like, you have to do this and this and this and this mm-hmm repent, convert be transfigured. And so he's always calling people and even he even calls himself out that all of us need to be transfigured. But it's just interesting that this question just highlights, that we're all on the, the path towards transfiguration all on the path towards conversion.
And there is definitely division between our words, our deeds, our actions, and our lives. Um, and Romero's just calling us back into harmonious unity. Mm-hmm , you know,
Julius: Um, speaking of, kind of words that, uh, Romero gravitates to, and, uh, speaking about preaching, you mentioned, um, the, the word scandal, or maybe we mentioned it prior to this conversation. Yeah. Does what, yeah. How does what you said, does it connect to how Romero understands like the gospel as a scandal and thus preaching as a scandalous act?
Yeah. How do, how can we define that? And.
Kevin: Um, yeah, another one. the scandal. Uh, one of the books we also use is called the scandal redemption, right. And it's, uh, a lot of Romero's quotes, um, compiled together. Uh, well, Romero he's, he's biblical to the core. Uh, It's he gravitates towards the Greek words, uh, scandal along mm-hmm um, it's I believe Paul uses it.
Um, and literally the word scandal means stumbling block mm-hmm . And so imagine someone walking on a road and then there's like a giant block or a rock and it just causes you to stumble, you know, can, can we just
Wilson: like, before. Before Kevin helps you here. Can we just name and totally empty your mind of like celebrity scandal, right.
Or tabloid scandal? Mm that's not what we're talking about. Yes. Right? Yes. So package that up, throw it out. make some room for what Kevin's about to lay out. Yeah. Well, thanks
Kevin: for that. And so, um, so a scandal is something like that trips. That you, um, fall and perhaps you get hurt a little bit and you kind of, you, you know, you fall to the ground and there's some sort of, um, tear in your flesh.
It's a scandal that it causes you to trip is the kind of the best way. And so Romero, uh, utilizes this, I mean, St. Paul does this as well that the gospel is scandalous and that it trips people up. He says that it calls it the scandal of the cross mm-hmm it's, uh, foolishness. To the Jew mm-hmm, no it's foolishness to the Greek and the stumbling block to the Jew.
Right, right, right. That the Jew cannot understand why the Messiah had to suffer and die. And then the Greeks cannot understand that this Jesus is divine incarnate. And so this is just something that trips, our epistemology, our understanding of how the world works and it just, it doesn't make sense. And so we, we stumble across.
It scandalizes us. And so Ram Romero uses this and, um, this is very, uh, the prophets are in line here. When Romero talks about how, um, the gospel of scandalous, uh, he talks about how Jesus trips people up that, um, whenever. The prophet would preach the word of God. Here's what the word of the Lord is saying to you.
And you have two options. You can either embrace this word or you can reject it. Um, and there is no middle ground here, uh, for the prophet. And so Romero says if the gospel scandalist then are preaching, needs to reflect that kind of scandal, cuz the gospel and preaching need to be in a harmonious unity.
Right? Mm-hmm . If here's the gospel, here's our preaching. They have to be in unity. If they're divided, then it just all falls. . And so when he talks about, uh, preaching as scandalous, he's saying that our preaching needs to reflect and continue that extension of Jesus causing or forcing for placing people in a position to either embrace his word or reject it.
And so what, what Romero would go in line here? He would say like, um, the world, the world says blessed are the rich. The world says, if you have a lot of things, then you are blessed. Romero would say, and then he would continue. He was like, no, Jesus said blessed are the poor mm-hmm . Um, because they have, they understand that they are a need for God.
And so he would, this is just an example, how Romero preaches in a scandalous way. It's something that trips us up. It makes us kind of feel uncomfortable. Mm-hmm and he says this. Jesus is saying, you need to find yourself in a poverty of spirit. And he calls out the rich, he calls out those in power. He calls out those who rather are self centered and selfish and their sin.
Um, and he says that we need to re re uh, embody the love that Christ has for the poor. And so one of the scandalous, uh, themes in Romero's preaching is that God has a special place in God's heart for the poor. that the poor are. Are to be seen as the faces of Christ. Um, and so he always, he calls out, I mean, this is goes, talk about getting political here.
Uh, he calls out the government, he calls out the natural guard. He calls out the police, uh, officers. He calls out even the revolutionaries and even those who take up arms with the poor, but he calls them out. And talks about how Christ is with a way of, of love and also the way of the poor. And so this is just an example of how Romero's preaching is scandal as it trips us up.
Yeah. , it's uncomfortable. Um, but it's also. in unity with the gospel. Yeah.
Wilson: And like Paul mentions that it, that hits the Jew and the Greek, which is everyone in his world. Right. Romero, uh, tripped up everyone
Kevin: oh, for sure. He, he would, uh, one of, one of his things, uh, I just read this yesterday. Um, and one of his sermons, he says, um, after like highlighting the poor, he says, neither he says, should we neglect the sins of the poor.
nor forget the virtues of the rich. Hmm. And so he kind of says like this, this is not, it's not just like a, a general statement. It's like, okay, poor, good, rich, bad. It's for Romero. It's much more nuanced than that. Um, but he says like the God in Christ can reveal himself through all people, but he would say the gospel is.
Uh, came to earth, especially for the poor, um, and kind of highlights the emphasis, but he also says that there are definitely the, the rich have virtues. And good, uh, Christian lives, except that they need must recognize that their own poverty and recognize that the, how the poor realized this, um, really well is that they need, they have a deep desire and need for God and they know God.
And so Romero calls the rich, like you need to know and have a desire for your need of God in the same way. The poor does.
Julius: Well, thanks. I mean, I feel like you both have given me plenty to sit with, um, and to thanks for your time. And I'm excited to explore this with you both in the coming episodes, talking more about, um, the implications of Romero's preaching on other aspects.