STORY:
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In our previous episode on Benedictine life and leadership, we said one key to St. Benedict's leadership was that he was always a good follower, and this had massive implications for how he thought about place. One of the monastics that came well before Benedict and so provided him guidance and wisdom, named Abba Moses of Ethiopia, when asked by younger monks what they should do to progress in their journey toward Christlikeness, used to tell the novices, "Go, sit in your cell, and your cell will teach you everything."
Wandering. Distractions. Novelty. Are all often only means of avoiding the things that really need our attention and energy if we want to grow.
This led Benedict to open his Rule - before saying anything about Praying the Psalms or wearing habits or choosing leaders – by describing four different types of monks. The first two are the types of monks we tend to imagine. The cenobites are those who live in a monastery and under an Abbot, and the Hermits are those who have spent many years in a monastery under an Abbot and now ready to battle alone with only God's help.
The next two, we don't really see in contemporary life, but they were common enough in Benedict's day. And he did not like their way of life for monks and nuns.
"Sarabaites" were monks or nuns who loosely gathered in small groups with, quote, "no experience to guide them, no rule to try them as gold is tried in a furnace ... Their law is what they like to do, whatever strikes their fancy. Anything they believe in and choose, they call holy; anything they dislike, they consider forbidden." End quote.
Fourth and finally, quote, "there are the monks called gyrovagues, who spend their entire lives drifting from region to region, staying as guests for three or four days in different monasteries. Always on the move, they never settle down, and are slaves to their own wills and gross appetites."
The reason Benedict didn't like these latter ways of life for nuns and monks was because of what he did envision, and crafted his rule to help his followers live into: communities of people committed to building up each other as they worked together to build up a place.
If you commit to each other, and a place, and then actually stay, it will teach you a lot.
Now, in a world with endless streams of endless kinds of content, this might be the least palatable advice we could be given. When you could laugh at pet videos and get tips for the gym and watch gradeshoolers fight demons from the upside down in the 20th century's best decade for pop culture all holding all the world's music in your pocket, why would anyone want to intentionally put themselves in an environment characterized by a lack of variety?
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We'd want this if we care about things like justice, beauty, and, well, love. Because we can't really be agents of justice in the outside circumstances of our world if we're numb to our own internal injustices, we can't make beautiful things to share with the world if we don't face the ugliness lurking in our resentment and fear, and we can't love difficult people in difficult situations if we don't really know, that the deepest and truest thing about us is that God loves us.
So maybe we'd want this if we've decided it's time to stop running.
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But don't just take my word for it. Listen to Benedict, and listen to someone from more recent times who serves as an example of what the kind of life and disposition Benedict's Rule seeks to help us attain can do even for our world today, because he lived this wisdom out seeking justice and love for himself and others.
Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in prison for his efforts to fight Apartheid in South Africa, but then returned to become President of South Africa from 1994-1999 and was key in helping his nation topple the racist system of Apartheid. And he said, "The cell is an ideal place to know yourself. People tend to measure themselves by external accomplishments, but jail allows a person to focus on internal ones, such as honesty, sincerity, simplicity, humility, generosity. In absence of variety, you learn to look into yourself."
So, this episode, we have a special guest. Someone who has spent time in a Benedictine monastery and taken this call to stability to heart. In the conversation that follows, Julius, Kevin, and I talk with Nathan Oats about how we can bring this wisdom to our world through our own steadiness and reliability.
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DISCUSSION [Auto-Generated Transcript]
Julius: Well, welcome back listener to All Things. We're excited, um, because as a remedy to my inability to come up with a fresh start for these, we actually get to introduce somebody else today rather than me just kind of going around, being like, “Wil and Kevin are here, like every time….” So, um, we're, we're really excited.
Um, we're gonna throw it over to, um, Kevin in a little bit here because Kevin actually introduced us to our new friend, Nathan, and he is gonna talk to us about, um, how some of the stuff that he's writing about regarding stability and ministry intersects with some of the stuff that we're talking about in Benedict's rules.
So, um, we've got Nathan Oates here. Kevin, if you wanna give kind of a brief introduction or just like, uh, or maybe Nathan, if you wanna say a little bit about yourself, I’ll throw it over to you before Kevin starts asking you some questions.
Nathan: Alright. Uh, well, thanks for having me on. I'm excited to get to know you guys and share common interest. Um, I'm a, I'm a pastor in Northern California started a church here 17 years ago. We've been pastoring since we began in ‘04 and I've got three kids, a beautiful wife, and still full of juice for what we're doing.
Um, fell in love with Benedict about 15 years ago. And, uh, excited to talk to you guys about him.
Julius: Awesome.
Wilson: We-we've already bonded over technological issues. Now let's bond over Benedict.
Julius: Yeah.
Nathan: Please. Yes, please. Yes, please.
Julius: …a better thing to talk about. And then Kevin, how do, how do you
Kevin: Yeah. So I recently moved, uh, from the Sacramento district of the Church in Nazare about four months ago and Nathan and I were serving on the same district and he was actually part of my, uh, ordination interviews. So he gave me the thumbs up to be ordained. So.
Nathan: I voted for him.
Kevin: So thank you for that. Thank you for not like, I don't know, voting down for me, I guess. [laughs] Yeah, but, uh, I've heard Nathan Oates, uh, speak, um, really well and robustly about St. Benedict, uh, through workshops and, um, district events and, uh, pastors retreats and, and days like… He also wrote a book, um, on St. Benedict called Stability: how an ancient monastic practice can restore our relationships, churches, and communities.
Um, and he has, um, a really cool experience that I want to kind of, uh, get started with, with St. Benedict. Um, but I heard this, uh, Nathan kind of talk about his trip to Rome and his trip living with Benedictine monks for several weeks. And that really captured my attention. And as we were going through this series, I was like, “We have to get Nathan and kind of have him share his experience and his knowledge with us on stability.”
So the first question Nathan is, what is your experience with St. Benedict and Benedictine spirituality? Uh, you can talk a little bit about your experience in the, uh, living in a monastery and kinda what you learned, how you became, you know, attracted to his rule and the impact St. Benedict has…
Nathan: Super. Uh, well for about 21 years, my spiritual director was, uh, a super contemplative man. Um, he, he since passed away, but, um, he, um, he introduced me to, uh, Orthodox theology, to ancient Roman theology, and even prior to the, the, the kind of the classic divisions to Benedictine spirituality. But I wasn't really aware of what we were talking about by name or label.
And, uh, it was after a retreat with him at a retreat center in Northern California— I was waiting for my ride and there was a small library in the kitchen of this place. And, um, I pulled out this little red book and it said The Rule of St. Benedict and I was interested. I'd never really, you know, I'd never heard of that.
And I was immediately captivated by the first sentence of the rule of chapter one, which is, “Clearly there are four kinds of monks.” I just thought, I just thought that was the coolest start to—I didn’t know there were four kinds of monks, I thought there was one kind of monk. So I, I, um, I proceed to read.
Nathan: Great. So, I mean, I just remember the experience really clearly Kevin, because I was so intrigued by this author's ability to, um, clearly describe the problem of the church. In, in terms of consumerism. And I was looking around in the book to try to figure out who is this guy? And when did he write?
Because if he understands the problem that I'm also facing and sensing, maybe he has a good solution for it. So I was actually kind of shocked to find out that Benedict lived in the sixth century in Italy. And so that began a, a, a pursuit of learning more about who he, um, was and is, and the impact that the rule has.
On the history of Christianity. And, uh, along the way, I began to build friendships with different people in, in different elements of religious life. And, um, through a connection with a Dominican nun was introduced to this monastery in Noria, which is the birthplace of Benedict. And w um, asked if I could go there and, and stay for a little.
and their response was awesome. Uh, they, it took like a month and a half to respond and then they responded with, you know, it's kind of a difficult time for us right now. So we can't really host you for a long time. Um, but maybe, maybe just two or three weeks. And I was like, oh, this is gonna go. I was thinking like a weekend.
I mean, literally my, my imagination was a weekend and they're like, you could probably come for three weeks. And so I was able to, uh, get a sabbatical in 2018. Spent a month with my family touring around Italy and then spent a month, um, solo and with the monks there at, at the monastery. So it was, it was just a, it was absolutely life changing experience.
And this is part of why it, it matters in relationship to the con, um, to the subject of stability, 2016, there were two massive earthquakes that just rocked this little town in the UMBR countryside. And everybody Al ultimately leaves the town of Nord. Modern name is Noria old, old name ISIA uh, the water, the water supply is disrupted.
The electrical is disrupted all the houses crumble. The church has crumble. Everybody leaves except these 12 Benedictine monks because they've taken a valve stability. And so the town begins to rebuild literally around the work of the monastery as they rebuild their own place to stay. So by the time I visit them two years later, 2018.
I have, um, I'm staying in their guest quarters, which is a metal storage shed. And that, that was it, man. So I got to do everything with them for three weeks. It was beautiful. It was really a powerful experience.
Kevin: Wow. Uh, before we get into the actual vow stability, I'm really curious. What did day daily life look like in the, in the monastery? Like when did you get up? When, what did you do throughout the day? When did you go to his sleep?
Nathan: Mm-hmm
Kevin: describe to us a typical day.
Nathan: Yeah. So I, I didn't know this until I got there, but they're a, they're a Roman right. Monastery. And essentially what that means is they, they pretty much have a, a dim view of Vatican too, and feel like the, the Roman church has gotten pretty thinned out. And, and so they are, they're attempting to live the rule as it was originally written in the sixth century.
So everything's in Latin, first of all, and they pray the full. Prescribed prayers. The, they say literally the same prayers that Benedict wrote. They go through the same, um, the, the same routine that as outlined in the rule. So we woke up at three 30 in the morning. That was the first time of prayer. Um, and then they prayed seven times a day.
Uh, they prayed the hours, the offices, LODs, tur none all the way through vespers complan. And then, um, we ate. Sometimes and, uh, and we worked, yeah, it was prayer work and sleep. And so essentially it breaks down to eight hours of prayer, eight hours of work and eight hours of sleep. And we eat a little bit in there.
Yeah. So they welcomed me all the way in. The only thing I wasn't really able to participate in is their daily mass I could attend. But of course I, I couldn't fully participate in the Eucharist with them, but yep.
Kevin: Nice.
Nathan: I got to work in the, in the brewery. That's how they sustained the monastery. So that was hilarious. Uh, if you, if some Nazarene boys here, um, Nate's working in a, in a brewery yeah.
Wilson: hilarious to Nazare. I don't know a lot of, a lot of others just like, yeah, no big deal.
Nathan: Great.
Wilson: seems smart.
Julius: work in amazing. almost all of us. . Yeah.
Kevin: that's awesome. Great. That's great. Nathan, that's a cool experience that you've had, so let's get into,
Wilson: well, hold, can I just quick question on that? Um, getting up at three 30 to start to pray, what time did they go to bed?
Nathan: I think the last, the, I think Colan was about 8:00 PM. Um, they. there was a little nap time that some of them would take it would just mess me up even more. So I was PR I, I wasn't pretty uncomfortable. Wilson. I was very uncomfortable for three weeks. I was very uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable spiritually.
I was uncomfortable physically. I was hungry the whole time. Um, I, I wasn't sleeping. Well, my dreams were the most. I don't have a, I have a very dynamic dream life, but it's. Psychological weirdness. It's not anything spiritual, but there, my dreams were like, I mean, I'm like casting out demons of people that I know.
I mean, I was like in this, I was in this warp space there where I felt it was a thin place to quote Lewis. It was just a place where I felt like it was a battle. The whole thing was, uh, was a battle. it was wonderful. In retrospect, I cried as I left, I felt like I had tasted heaven. I wondered if in an, if I had been introduced to Christ in a Roman context, if I would've pursued that vocation, because it was so attractive to me, so attractive.
And yet I, I felt like an old man. I felt like, uh, underdeveloped, spiritually compared to these 20 year old monk. I felt like they were talking about something that I had tasted, but had really not feasted on. And they knew it inside and out. So this is incredibly, I mean, I'm like, I'm moved emotionally, even just thinking about it.
It's already been four years. There you go.
Wilson: yeah, yeah. This is, I mean, this is a huge can of worms, but just that that's got me. Well, not a can of worms. It's a. It's a huge treasure trove that we have a limited time to open and peek at, but it's just where that, where that connected with me is, uh, I'm doing in, in my PhD program, I'm doing a, a lot of work on even just perception.
And, uh, and one of the things that I'm chasing down that I, the more and more I hear and experience, the more and more I, I see the truth of this is like, um, well, I think, I guess the way to get into it is people often say like, if God were real, why wouldn't God show God self to me? Why wouldn't God manifest?
Why wouldn't God, this or that? And the, the, like part of the response that I'm chasing now that I think is true. And if we, we listen to the response of. The deepest best spiritual traditions, and especially in the deepest best of like the Christian tradition, the Christian faith would respond with like, well, what are you doing to be able to see.
There, there are certain ways of life that shape what we're capable of perceiving, um, and, and living those ways, open up those doors to perception to, to see what, like, what is, and this is, I mean, I think this makes a lot more sense of like what the book of revelation is getting at to it's that moment when the, I mean, revelation, apocalypse.
Is the Greek word translated revelation. And it literally just means uncovering like a veil is lifted and when the veil is lifted, we'll, we'll finally see, what's always been there. You know, it's not that that God isn't speaking, it's not that God's not showing God's self to us or responding, but there's a certain way that we're kind of like habitually living that lowers the veil that, that shuts the doors of our perception.
Nathan: that's powerful.
Wilson: And where, like the connection point there was, you mentioned, oh, we would get up to pray at three 30 and I start thinking, oh my gosh, that's the worst sleep, deprivation, depression, et cetera, et cetera. But then I think, but they also live the rest of their life, according to a totally different rhythm.
We're so used to artificial life, you know? And so going to bed at 11 is going to bed early for a lot of people. And if going to bed at 11 is early, then yeah, three 30 is insane. But if you go to bed with the sun, You know, um, and, and your rhythms are following the rhythms of the world. And like, if, if that's, what's shaping your rhythm, you know, if Christ is the rhythm, the logouts of all creation, if you're living in harmony with that, then not only does, you know, getting up at three 30, become a different thing.
If you've gone a bed a different time, but if you're living in those rhythms, you start to perceive and notice and dream and yeah. Differently.
Kevin: I think it's also, uh, for me is, is illuminated how, I mean, we're always formed in specific
ways. And so like, even right now for us non monastic, Like we are always, we are continuously being formed in such, such, such a way, even like you mentioned consumerism, like even though I can critique that I have been deeply influenced informed by consumerism. Um, but like people like those benedicting monks who literally live an alternative way of life, they are.
And a sense, yeah. Bringing the kingdom of God or witnessing to the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. And when you go there, like it, it feels uncomfortable. Like this is strange abnormal, it feels wrong, but is actually quite right and actually good for us. Um, it's kind of healing to our, to our formation and souls.
Wilson: Yeah. So we say often, like the question's not, how do I get to heaven? It's how do I become the kind of person that would enjoy it
Kevin: Yes.
Nathan: love that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And that's, that was, uh, something that I heard the monks there say quite often was that they chose, there were several that I got to speak to eventually in my time there and spend time with, and almost everyone said, cause I would ask them, I was asking 'em questions like crazy.
And one of the reasons of course, one of the questions is why'd you become a monk, like what's attractive about this. Several people said, essentially this is like the fastest. Most efficient, most, uh, comprehensive sanctification experience. So I'm in, like I'm in and one of the guys was like, it was either gonna be a Marine or a monk.
I knew it had to be something that was completely all in.
Wilson: Yeah.
Nathan: dude, it was just, um, and they were just becoming holy and I wouldn't say that they were very comfortable with. Themselves, even Wilson. I mean, yeah, they had, they weren't as tired as I was, but they were tired. Um, and, uh, and they worked hard, but gosh, they were very, they, they appeared to me to be very focused on the big picture of why they were there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilson: it's amazing. How, like what your goal is, how much that shapes what you mean by words, like fast and efficient.
Julius: I know you're right,
Wilson: in so many
Nathan: Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right.
Wilson: life is so inefficient and slow, you know?
Nathan: like, uh, not, not there's no distraction. Um, they weren't being, they weren't wasting time
Wilson: Yep.
Nathan: or maybe they wouldn't say wasting actually, but they weren't taking time, um, with a spouse. Or with, um, with a job that's requiring them to, to learn how to code or learn how to pastor or learn how to, I don't know, whatever coach baseball. I love it.
Kevin: uh, Uh, the kind of heart of this episode is called stability. And so, uh, Nathan has wrote written extensively on the Val benedicting vow of stability and the value of stability. Um, but let's get into this heart. Uh, so first of all, just general question, what is the vow of stability for our listeners? Um, and also related to that question, what's the value of this vow?
Nathan: Um, So I'm, I've been describing the vow itself as, um, a, a valve permanency. It is, it is essentially the commitment to a place and a people and a purpose. Um, in Benedict's context, it was, you're staying in this cloistered monastery for the rest of your life. And you're living with these men for the rest of your life.
And you're obeying. The Abbot, the father a and you're living according to this rule for the rest of your life. So that was his context. And I think we can translate the essence of it by saying it's a commitment to a place and a people. And a purpose sometimes I've said is like the commitment to the farm and the family.
And then the fruit that comes from that would be like the purpose. Like there's gotta be a why. Um, I think that if the, the temptation for some in kind of the template of spiritual. Community is to embrace stability for stability's sake. And I think that misses the point stability is instrumental.
Stability is valuable because of what it enables. Um, it is such a critical piece of work that matters of change that lasts that Benedict realizes that the value and it's so counter the fallen nature of man, cuz we're restless. Wanderers Benedict recognizes the value. Recognizes the difficulty of keeping the value.
And so he turns the value into a vow. And so it's not just that, that stability is one of the three values of Benedictine spirituality. It's one of the three vows and you don't enter the community unless you make a vow of stability. So I, I, I mean, when I'm talking to people on the sidewalk about it, I say, this is the thing, this is an essential ingredient.
that enables your work to make a difference, whether it's the work of being a father or the work of building a house or anything. I mean, the bottom line is that if we're constantly moving and we are not remaining, if we are instead abandoning or leaving, then you know, we might have a couple. Brilliant moments of innovation that people, you know, cheer for.
But in the end, the work that we do is not gonna last. It's not gonna make a difference. A father that leaves is not a good father, a tree that is transplanted two or three times simply doesn't bear fruit anymore.
Julius: Hmm, you know, that's F it to kind of go back to your point about the, um, how funny, like the different kind of definitions of like the fastest and most efficient way to sanctification or salvation. And their like, version of that is to stay in one place for a lifetime. That that's the fastest way is to live a lifetime with the same people and finding myself like it, it really does highlight, um, kind of like wills use the image of kind of like if you're like in a dark room or whatever, and you like for a long time and you flip the lights on in someone it's gonna hurt.
And that's kind of like the growing pains. Being in a very like fast paced consumer capitalist culture to be like transported into kind of like this rhythm of life. Like, I, I, even myself not having spent two or three weeks there, I find myself resistant to kind of like, how can, like, how can you stay in a place for so long?
I moved around like, Every three years, at least growing up. And that was, and a lot of that was because of like necessity of like how like my parents having to find work. And so like, to, to be in like a kind of, um, society and like economic system where that's not even POS like stability, isn't literally possible for so many people.
And so I'm, I'm curious, like, how did. how do they make that kind of happen? Feasibly, as far as like, um, like being able to stay in this place, do they own like this property, like as far as like the, are they, like self-sustaining in terms of like the stuff that they're growing to eat, you said that they run like a brewery.
Right. And that makes that kind of like really possible, like. Um, I'm curious about like the kind of practice of it that, that allowed them to like, have the stability to stay in a place where, like you said, it was like physically tumultuous of like, there were like earthquakes and all that stuff. How to
Nathan: Right, right. Yeah. The whole place was destroyed. Yeah. You're getting to a great, the answer to your questions are yes. And yes. And yes, they, they own property and they, they sustain their work there. And in a variety of means some of them are, you know, some monastery cell wine, some cell candles, some cell, uh, some basically are retreat centers and it's like a hospitality.
Um, it's like a, that's how they, that's how they raise money. Um, and, and to the. To the impossibility side of what you said. Um, it's easy to miss the point. The, the, the point is not ultimately the point is not the cloister or their, their place where they live. And ultimately the point is not for me to stay in Lincoln, California for 50 years.
Julius: right, right.
Nathan: Um, the point is, is like a stability of heart. it's the ability to, it's like the literal capacity to be in chaos and, and know who you are and why you're there. But, but here's the thing we don't get there until the theoretical gets tested in the real. And that's why I should stay in Lincoln for 50 years because it's learning how to interact with the reality of the actual things and people in my life that will teach me.
How to have stability of heart. I can't just read a book about it and go what a beautiful idea I choose to do that. I need to practice that, you know, with the dog that wants to keep going in and out as, or whatever that's, what's going on here. But if the, if real life doesn't press in to actually challenge, um, the concept or the value, then we don't ever really learn.
does that, does that make sense?
Wilson: Yeah. That's
Nathan: That's why place is so important and that's why people are so important. And that's why not running away from either is critical.
Wilson: yeah, that's it. When you. Talking through it in an initial response to Kevin's prompt there. I thought what I wrote down was stability. Not for comfort. I think Kevin or Julius and I were tracking too, as far as where we went with, um, where we went with, where you went with that prop was thinking like, in our context, stability can start to seem really attractive.
Right. But because we want to run away from the challenges of. Like, I mean, uh, we. I mean, you're more Northern California, but in Southern California, there are lots of people running away because they want a different kind of stability. Right? You don't want, you don't want to face the challenges of dang. I just, we just had a raise and I thought that was gonna make us financially stable, but now everything else doubled and, and it's still a challenge.
Um, it, that it's. Stability for that sake of, I don't want disruptions. I don't, I, I want the comfort. I want to know, like the world will stay out there and I can just have my little island of peace that, that, that actually what this kind of vow of stability is, and, and you just named it. What you're really chasing is becoming the kind of person that can enjoy heaven.
And one aspect of that is the stability of heart. Um, That commitment. So there to, to actually live this out, you're gonna have to work through, uh, the challenges that come up and the most difficult ones are gonna be the ones inside the internal challenges. This is what, you know, in the way that Shama is trying to incorporate this in our daily life so that we could hopefully share that with some other people.
That's exactly what I've been talking about every morning. This week is like circumstances and demands. Are are pulling all of my time and energy to these things. But, but if this is gonna be something that makes me a certain kind of person, this is where I need to give my best time and energy too. And so I need to tell you guys that, and I need you to hold me accountable to it, to become a stable person is to, to face the things inside of you, um, that make that impossible for you at this point in your life, that would make you want to run or find a different way out or avoid what it takes.
Nathan: Yeah. One of the biggest misconceptions about monastics is that they are running away from the world. And, and, uh, as though it's a cop out, um, as though they're taking the easy way and, um, and I felt that position for a long time, but you're right. They, they are dealing with the most intense. Um, battlefield, which is, which is the battlefield within.
And this one brother that I met there was he, we were talking about this. He said he had to surrender everything to Jesus. And I was like, thinking marriage and you know, the commitment to celibacy and things like that. And he said, I had to commit the desire to win souls. I was like, wow. He's like, yeah.
Cause he was a priest. He was a Catholic priest. He said, yeah, I wanted to. Thousands of souls. I had to submit that to Jesus. I had to surrender that to Jesus. I was like, man, this is incredible. Um, yeah. Yeah. They would say also that the vocation that we have chosen least those of us who are married is, um, is the harder one in some ways, because of the constant, like the com our vow.
assumes a constant, like pull to care for another. So there's Al now I have two, I have two and Paul wrestles with this, right. Um, I have devotion to Jesus and I have devotion to Carmen and both of those are vowed through my baptism and my marriage. I've made two, I've made two vows and, and sometimes those go right in hand and sometimes those are, are in, in intention.
Kevin: of talk about, uh, um, I'm a fan of theology here. And so what is like the, in terms of the stability, how is, how is God a stable God? What is the theological ground for stability? Uh, cuz I know this is not just something, oh, we're gonna practice this cuz it's a nice practice, but there's actually is that I think it's grounded in the very nature and being in character of God.
Well, what did you say to that?
Nathan: I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. I think that, um, he, God is, he's not, he's, there's a couple of things. There's a couple, the couple of the doctrines or a couple characteristics of God he's Omni present. so the idea that you could go or that you need to go somewhere to experience, God is a false idea.
If, if I can't experience God here, where he is, then I can't expect to, to that's to change somewhere else. And yet we have grown up in a culture that says, I gotta go be with God, or we even use things like we say, God showed up. Um, God is not somewhere else. God is omnipresent. God is always here now. So here and now is where I need to be.
And, uh, it it's. So, so at some, in some ways this whole thing of stability is rooted in the Omni presence of God, in some ways, probably both. And this is rooted in, um, in, I wanna say the stability of God, the constancy of. Uh, uh, sometimes people say the faithfulness of God and I like that, but I don't think it's, I don't think it quite gets there all the way.
It's more than it's more than that. God is faithful. God is also like, um, this unchanging nature so that I would like, I like the word constancy better than even faithful. Um, and we see this in, so to put it in like biblical terms, we see this in Jacob running away after he. You know, cheats his brother outta the birthright, falling asleep, having the vision of the stairway to heaven, and then realizing surely God is in this place.
And I wasn't aware of it. And he's terrified about that. He's terrified that God's with him there in that place. We see it in David's Psalm 1 39, where can I go from your presence? Where can I flee if I go to the depths you're there. Um, and now, and that's more of a, of a truth that David. Celebrating. It seems so we see this like always constant presence of God.
And I think Kevin, that's a really important piece from a Theo, like in terms of a theological root of, um, of stability. And then it gets expressed in pastoral terms by Jesus who says I'm always. um, my piece I give to you, I'm never gonna leave you, forsake you. And, and so I don't think that we can divorce the character of God from the conversation of stability, cuz I do believe it's the root, but really it builds, it begins with the, it begins with the nature of God.
And we have to talk about stability in terms of who God is. And then the next layer is potentially stability as it relates to my own sense of who I am and my sense of settledness, the war of being a restless wanderer. And then we talk can talk about stability in place and we can talk about stability in people and stability and purpose.
And I ultimately think stability is the way to, to affect change. So, um, but I would, I would agree
with you from the, in the sense. Ultimately, this goes all the way back to a God who is not doesn't change. Like shifting shadows.
Kevin: Yeah, I was, uh, reading your book. And one of the, my favorite quotes was, uh, you were conversing with a brother and he was essentially saying paraphrasing that in order for me to like commune with God best, I need to be stable and present here. And so it's almost like stability is an avenue of communion with God.
That I need in order to be, for me to know God more, love God more. I need time in that time, I need to stay put right here for like years and a lot of times we would have the, yeah, the grass is greener on the other side. God must be over there. You know, my purpose is somehow over there. My Destin's over there.
It's like, actually, no, it's right here.
Nathan: Yeah. He said I need a time and a place to unpack the reality of the omnipresence of God.
Kevin: Yeah.
Wilson: know
Nathan: yeah.
Wilson: uh,
Nathan: Yeah.
Wilson: And that unchange, it makes me so, uh, anecdotally it makes me think about a couple years ago, I was doing my in, in trying to incorporate some of these Benedictine habits of prayer. I was praying in the morning and it, my prayer went to my kids and just what my boys were trying to
My boys were trying to learn as they were also forced to share a room. Um, and, uh, and, uh, there were, there were times where I would come. And they'd be yelling at each other. And if I didn't get worked up, they would both get mad at me cuz they took this as like, you don't see how important this is. Don't you know why this matters it almost like I need to know that you know, that he's a jerk too, you know, I need, I need to see you affected by this.
Um, and I, I, I think that that is. I mean, I have some colleagues here that won't like this, but here we go. I think that's the temptation of like process theology is like, we want a God that is like, man, dang, you guys are right. whoa. You know, and I think really the instinctual drive there is, you know, is that like, we want.
We want to know that we really do have a case here.
Julius: Mm-hmm
Wilson: we've got something to say, you know, but, um, but I, I just felt a very, very clear leading that like my calling for them to teach them with that, it's no lectures right now. There might come a time to help explain to them what's happening, but, but it's not gonna lead with lectures, but I need to be centered and present in Christ.
And so that the most important thing is the presence I bring into the room. When I walk into the conflict. That I can bring that centeredness and that presence, and even a sense of humor in the midst of their fear and their anger, and that would open the door for them, right. To learn what they need to learn and then open the door for conversations that could point to.
An unchanging, like their present knows deeply, but also, uh, the, the theological term is impassability a God that, that knows that can, but can do something about it because isn't affected by it the way that we are, you know, and that's
Nathan: In other word.
Wilson: monastic practice making us those kind of people that that's what flows into saving souls, giving something to the world.
That's that is mission is becoming that kind of person.
Nathan: So I hear you saying that your role as a father is essentially to reflect reality to your boys,
Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan: Right. Um, yeah. Which is what the monks would say is their ultimate calling is to, to set an example for the church. So the church can set an example for the world.
Julius: Hm.
Kevin: So stability is a vow of, uh, stability helps us remain stable in God and stability is valuable to the church.
Nathan: Mm-hmm
Kevin: so my question for you Nathan is kind of like the, the thesis of your book. What's wrong with the church, what's wrong with the north American church, uh, and, and, and terms of like how you related it to stability.
What's wrong with the church and why is stability a ReMed. the healing of the church.
Wilson: Just just an easy softball. One to start wrapping
Nathan: No doubt. Yeah.
Julius: you know, a brief one.
Kevin: yeah, but, but why, why stability? Why, why did you write about this? And you, you highlighted this in your book. I just wanna
Nathan: That's a little bit easier to the wise stability. Um, cuz there's so many things probably that are wrong with the church. Sadly. Um, my, my mentor said that the, and he probably got it from somebody else that the church is the last great humiliation of Christ. Um, and, and also the instrument of restoration too.
So it's, it's crazy. So one of the things that's wrong with the church in this state is, uh, and, and nation is we're addicted to consumerism. We bought it, we're swimming in it, we're breathing it. We celebrate it. You know, we're dropping, uh, donuts outta helicopters and calling it Easter Sunday. I mean, it's crazy town.
It's entertainment. It's not. Formation. Um, it's not Christianity in any, um, in any honest sense of the testimony of the early church, it is consumerism wearing the cloak of, uh, of Christianity. I think you pull off the cover and you have just another sort of quote, unquote baptized version of consumer. And it is really challenging to point a finger at that without realizing that I'm pointing a lot of fingers at myself as well.
Um, but. Uh, I, I feel like, so what do we do? Do we just say like, so it's the whole, thing's jacked. Let's just ditch it. No, there is a remedy and that's stability. That's stability. Like that is the, that is one of, if not the primary antidote to just completely being swept away in the current of, um, of selfish self-centered consumerism.
Um, and it, it takes the form of, I mean, it, it impacts almost every element of the church from personal to communal to like even corporate and methods of evangelism and expansion and that kind of thing. So, um, was that close to what you were kind of shooting for Kevin?
Kevin: I just wanted to, I wanted you to say consumerism and also how, how that looked like in the church and just to call it out, cuz uh, That. I mean, I can imagine people are, are hearing and, uh, us talk about stability and kind of the question is like, okay, why is this important? Why, what, what, what's wrong with the, with the church?
And I think consumer consumerism essentially makes us unstable. We, we, we, it's all about, uh, you know, it's. Envious gluttonous , uh, you know, desire for more and more, more entertainment, more pleasure. More of
Nathan: first stuff. How does this impact me? Mm-hmm yeah.
Kevin: yeah. Going to churches for, you know, that benefits my, uh, you know, self-fulfillment my, you know, whatever.
And rather being stability says, like, I want to commit myself to this people. Even through like harsh trials and the people are bickering and people are like getting angry with each other and we're having fights stability says, I, I wanna commit myself to this people, you know? So that's a
Nathan: right. Yeah. For the greater end. Right. It's helpful for me to understand another big topic, really fast that the all of American Christianity is really influenced by revivalism our tradition's influenced by revivalism. So the, the gathering ends with a call to response, and now it's personal and it's about me.
And it's some really good stuff about that. There's some really important stuff. Salvation is a personal thing. Um, but it's not an individualistic. Um, and it's, it's easy to see. It's easy to trace the thread back in American Christianity and see how just the Western expansion and the industrial revolution just kind of walked right into the church and, and took residents there.
Um, but, um, yeah, if we, if we don't make that distinction and we don't start calling it out, I don't see us having anything to bring to the table. That's any different from any other self. Alternative out there. In other words, this is what we have to offer the world an alternative to this meaningless movement.
That's everywhere and it's worse than meaningless. It's actually destructive. It's destroying families. It's destroying personal peace cuz nobody can stand still and it's destroying the environment. I mean we just use and abuse and move on. And so, uh, one of the most interesting dynamics that I discuss in the book, at least it's interesting to me is the.
The different motivation behind why we do move because we're always, yeah. There's movement. There's, there's good movement and there's destructive movement. And it, it's really hard to tell the two apart, but essentially it comes down to the difference between leaving and being sent. If we can go into a, a village or go into a city and take up residents there and say, I'm gonna be part of the fabric that holds this place together, that's a kind of movement that leads to healing.
And restoration, um, the, the trend that has been institutionalized in some Wesleyan traditions where they literally are moving spiritual leaders every two or three years, it's just baffling to me. It's like, how do we expect any lasting work to be done, uh, with that as kind of a baked into the pie kind of method. So, and maybe I could summarize it with this and then Julius let's please, please say what you're gonna say. Um, there's always a reason to leave. There's always reasons to leave and, and stability invites us the tradition of stability and the Christian tradition, um, invites us to prioritize the reasons to stay.
It's not to deny that there's reasons to crabby people, alternative options, great opportunities, but it is an invitation to just prioritize the reason to stay.
Kevin: Well, thank you so much for that, Nathan. Um, it gives us a lot of good. Um, things to think about and ponder. And, uh, last question to, to conclude this episode is just to give us some, um, simple, basic practices on how non monastic Christians or local churches, pastors, leaders, anybody listening to this can practice stability.
Um, how do we grow in it? And what are some like practical ways that we can participate in this in our daily
Nathan: Okay. Yeah, I think we grow through practice. It's it's essential to practice, not just to learn about it's, it's essential to know stability and that comes through practicing. And so if we can't push it to the practical, I think we, we are just talking about a concept. So here are a few ideas and there's so many, um, and I love talking to people about this personally, but in, in this context, A big overarching kind of rule would be when conflict comes, what is the value of pushing through it?
Why should I stay when I'm in an argument with, with my wife and I can be, and what's clear, what's most clear is the reason to walk out or the reason to fight or the disagreement. Can I, can I move closer to the, can I become more radical and less extreme? Can I get closer to the root of what I'm act the source of.
Which is, is not gonna be achieved if I bail out the source of life in any conflict requires me to, to draw in and ask the, the, the deeper questions and not just react, um, and, and respond like most of our culture does so pressed into the practical. It includes things like this. If we could celebrate the, the root.
that really leads to the fruit. We're really good at celebrating the happy ending. We're not so good at saying, and I had a really dry season when my son was sick and I didn't sense the presence of God for nine months,
Julius: Oh,
Nathan: but that's a good thing because I pressed through that. And there's things I'm gonna learn in the dark that I can only learn in the dark.
What if, what if we could generate, um, Christian worship settings or family meals? Where part of what was good about the day was the hard part of the day. And we could say, yeah, that was a really difficult thing. Um, and I'm grateful for that end of story. You know, instead of, and then it led to this happy ending.
We're scared of we run away from difficulty because we, we rarely celebrated. We only see the good stories told and the happy ending. So one, one idea is to celebrate the root and there's so many hard things in conflict. You know, you guys shared before we recorded, there's some difficulty here. So I would say celebrate that, like, make that a point of I'm gonna experience the presence of God here and I'm gonna celebrate it.
Another thing is valuing the permanence of people, which is essentially just a hardcore commitment to community. Um, really valuing friendships that are multi. Decades long and doing the hard work of living through many seasons of life with the same people. I think that's a really practical way to experience stability.
There's a richness that comes, um, through 15, 20, 25 years in relationship that there's no shortcut to this kind of richness. There's just no shortcut. I live in a town of 50,000 people, almost everywhere I go. I see somebody I know, and the church is only a few hundred people. It's like 500 people. And so I'm knowing a lot of people from different contexts, but almost everywhere I go.
I see people that I know, and that's a kind of richness that comes in valuing the permanency of the people in this place. Um, and a third idea is to develop placement practices of placement, which is a kind of a, a way of saying that traditions can. Meaningful, uh, on our days off, we go to the same river.
Often we go to the confluence of the American river and that place has now become deep and rich and, and full of spiritual significance for us. Our kids were ball baptized there. Um, some things like that. So there's that doesn't exist the first time you go to the confluence that what I'm talking about is the richness that comes that that 700th time you go to the confluence, you know?
Um, and so. Practicing ways to be placed to, to be rooted and grounded. And to know yourself in association. I go back to my parents' house where I they've lived since I was four. And there's a level of groundedness that I experience when I walk onto that property. That's unparalleled. I know who I am. I was, I was named first there.
I was cheered on first there I was embraced and accepted as who I was there first. And then a final thing that I would say is, uh, I went into the monastery thinking, let's talk about church and monastery church and monastery. These are the two things I wanted to talk about. And they said, you know, Church is important, but a better comparison is family and monastery, family and monastery.
So, uh, they would, they would encourage me to see the family as the principal, community of formation.
Julius: Wow.
Nathan: Um, so those are some prac-I hope those are practical enough. Stay put let the, let the place you're in teach you reveal who you are, what you need, what irritates you. um, let the people be the, the mirror and the reflection and the sanctifying agents that help you become who you really need to become. And, um, don't just say, I want to be here.
I'm gonna embrace stability cuz it's cool, but I want to embrace stability. For what reason? Like what is the hope that I have so that when things get hard and I have 900 reasons to leave, I can choose the reason to stay and I can prioritize. I can be a fruitful tree. I can be like the tree in Psalm one that is, um, that is bountiful and even is healthy when I'm not producing fruit, um, in and out of season, um, I can be like the tree planted by streams of living water.
[MUSIC TRANSITION TO MEDITATION]
MEDITATION
[PAD AND MELODY SWELL AND FADE THROUGHOUT]
So for this meditation, we're going to give the last word to our guest, Nathan. We'll simply insert some strategic pauses to give you opportunity to really think about how you might practice what he describes, or live into your responses to the questions he poses.
[END]