STORY:
[MUSIC BEGINS/CONTINUES]
What I'm about to say might sound odd, because we are often not aware of what's actually motivating us with each action we take, moment-by-moment, but everything you do is aimed at some goal for the future. Our motivations are often instinctual and expressed in habit - it's not like we move through every second calculating each move like a chess player. And our aim might not be far off in the future - usually we're reacting, trying to get a little quiet so we can think, or escape a conversation that might turn uncomfortable, not moving strategically toward retiring and dying happy. But we would never do anything if each action were not for something.
So, if that is true, and it is, then where are you going?
It matters a great deal, because whether you say a kind word, or a critical word, or straight up--hit someone--the purpose, the end, the future you're aiming for, is what gives the act its meaning.
If I were to say to you, "I love you," but the purpose of that address is so I can get a piece of your California burrito, then that intent gives the actual substance to the words, "I love you." Even a phrase like "I love you," quickly becomes self-serving; it really has nothing to do with you, it's all about me ... and that california burrito.
This works with superficially negative words and actions, too. If I were to say a critical word -- a word that stings, yes, a word that may hurt your feelings, yes -- but if that critical word is truly, substantially aimed at your good, then it gives a different, positive meaning to the superficially negative word.
If the end or purpose is clarified and I know the person loves me, I can receive a critical word with humility and respect. Words can hurt, but this is why it hurts differently when we know the words are true, and that the person speaking is someone we deeply admire and respect because of the way they love.
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This is critically important to remember if we are going to glean the wisdom available to us in the section of Benedict's Rule that has been dubbed the "Penal Code."
This section deals with Discipline, Excommunication, and Grace. But it's easy to forget that last one when the Rule gives instructions on what to do with people who fail, mess up, neglect their daily tasks, have wayward hearts, and who refuse to amend their ways. For example, Benedict instructs that if a brother is found to be stubborn or disobedient or proud, if he grumbles and complains or in any way despises the Rule of Life, and then intentionally defies the orders of the leaders, that person is to:
1. Be warned twice privately by leaders according to Jesus' words in Matthew 18:15-16.
2. If the brother does not amend, he must be rebuked publicly in the presence of everyone.
3. If the brother still does not amend, let him be excommunicated, which means thrown out of the community.
The rule even goes on to say not to associate with those who have been excommunicated, unless you are authorized by the Abbott. Now if you're like me, then in words like those you can't help but hear echoes of legalism. Such actions are immediately associated with being extreme, overbearing and, ironically enough, coming from a Saint, "unloving and Un-Christlike."
So, was Benedict actually a brute, who loved legalism and imposing burdens on other people? Is the Rule a tyrannical imposition on my individual rights as a Western Modern civilian? Another example of Christians being oppressive, legalistic, fundamentalist, and devoid of grace?
Both Christianity and the Rule of Benedict can - and have - certainly been twisted into this when we don't remember what we said about Love directing our end goals. If we forget this, the penal section of the Rule will not help us much on our way to becoming Christlike in dealing with our rebellious children, toxic friends, withdrawing lovers or unmotivated coworkers.
But when love is remembered, it unlocks a much better interpretation, that when practiced, unlocks something like redemption -- not just for our understanding of this section of the code, for of the moments of conflict we all face.
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The key to interpretation is always context: historical, cultural, literary, and theological. First, Benedict was a monk in Nursia, in Italy, in the 6th century (a little over 1,500 years ago). This is before the U.S.A, before the Protestant Reformation, before the Western-Eastern Church schism in 1054. Before so much of what makes our world and our own understanding what they are.
At the very least, let's give Benedict the benefit by acknowledging that he thought and worked in culture and time that are immensely different from our own.
Second, Benedict was a Christian who set as the end goal for his own life to become a person wholly devoted to following the Son of God in accordance with the holy scriptures, and to do that in a voluntary society of monks.
This personal goal helps us appreciate the end purpose for his monasteries. Why did he create them in in the first place? To reform and heal the human person toward the image and likeness of Jesus Christ.
So all of the discipline -- the so-called penal codes –- and the excommunication are in service to that goal. The purpose, the end, of these disciplines is to reform and lead people to a future characterized by healing. Benedict took the intimidating task of reforming human desires that have twisted in such a way as to make people who despise order, discipline, vows, structure, and authority; How do you reform a desire that cares only for its own protection, safety, and individuality? Put people in situations that give them opportunity to learn to love bigger things. How do you heal someone's propensity to care more about what the Self says than what the community needs? How do you reorient Someone's desire to enter a voluntary society and to expect this society to conform to the individual desire?
Therefore, for Benedict, discipline was defined by questions like: "What will save my brother or sister? What is needed for their healing, their growth in Christlikeness? Do they need to rest, to eat, and to recuperate? Or, do they need to have a fire lit under their pants so they can get to work?
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Far from being a Christian "devoid of grace," Benedict inscribed radical grace for wayward hearts into every line of his Rule. St. Benedict understood to truly care about the person, you must also care about their role and place within the life of the community that gives them dignity and purpose.
He respected the freedom of the person, sure. He even says in his rule, paraphrased, that New members of our monastery, are completely free to leave at any time; brothers who have left the monastery, you are welcome to rejoin our way of life, even up to the 3rd time of leaving!
In 6th-century culture, this was a radical way to embody grace. The common assumption of the time was: "Once you're in, you're in; Once you're out, you're out." The possibility of extending grace and care for those who faulted was counter Benedict's culture. Therefore, the intriguing question should be: given his context, what enabled Benedict to envision a wedding of discipline and grace?
The anser is Christ.
In chapter 27, Benedict encouraged Abbots (that is, leaders of monasteries) to remember that our Lord left the 99 in search of the 1 lost sheep, and that Christ said: It is not the healthy that need a physician, but the sick. The one trusted with enacting his Rule was also called to instill care and concern for those who have grown sick and tired. The Abbot was expected, like Jesus, to journey toward the lost sheep, put them on his shoulders, and carry them back towards God. Benedict wanted to arrange a way of life so that the strong, mature, and wise in Christ may have something to yearn for AND that the weak, the new, or the babe in Christ may have nothing to run from.
That tension is one that is incredibly difficult to maintain; it would be far easier to be an exclusive place for the strong (you're in only if you can bench press 250 lbs, or if you've already attained Sainthood) OR to be a place where practically anything can happen (you have a pulse? Ok, come on).
How do hold this kind of Benedictine tension? By keeping the end goal in mind. That way, you can both be patient with someone's failure, and hold expectations that name their potential strength and to honor this potential by giving them opportunity to actualize it.
So, holding this tension and chasing this goal raises some serious questions about authority and power. So in the conversation that follows, Kevin, Julius and I discuss some of the ways we can recognize true authority, and experience the power of healing.
DISCUSSION [Auto-Generated Transcript]
Julius: Well, welcome back to All Things, listener. Um, we're picking up on this series on Benedict's rule and we're kind of taking things topic by topic. And today we've kind of laid out, um, this topic of discipline as it's found in the, in Benedict's rule, in his, in his communities. And I, I don't know if you mentioned it explicitly, but we're, we're kind of like gonna start this conversation, talking about the relationship between discipline and grace, which I think that for so many of us, we can see those two things as always in competition with one another, especially in Christian language and in Christian leadership.
So Kevin, today, if you could talk about the relat. Of discipline and grace in Benedict's rule. And how does the guidelines that he sets out for these communities? How can we see discipline and grace as not in competition with one another in the way that Benedict sets out this way of life?
Kevin: To frame the beginning of this conversation.
I wanted to look at the word discipline first, and then we can look at the word grace mm-hmm . Um, for me personally, when I think of the word discipline, my mind immediately goes to like practices or habits, like disciplines. Mm-hmm things that we are disciplined into, but sometimes the word, perhaps when you've listener, heard the word discipline.
You thought of like the teacher in second grade school. Sure. Where like, it's like stop doing that. You go back in the corner. Yes. Time out. You know, you're gonna look at that and dunks capital, the Dunns cap. Is that a real thing? That's just cartoons,
Wilson: right? It had to have been, I dunno, like
Kevin: but like that's when the teacher's disciplining you or like a parent disciplines, you know, their child.
Yeah. And they go. You know, have to do, go to the room and just cry alone or something like that. think about what you've done. Think about what you've done. And so like when we think about like disciplining children, disciplining students, disciplining people, uh, this is what we mean in this episode by discipline and grace, particularly because in the section that we're covering and Benedict's rule, there is a quite a bit of.
Words and instruction on what people have called the so-called Peno code. Hmm. And there's like penalties or things that need, uh, required discipline in case. So, and so happens. So we have like examples where Benex says, like, if a person defies the orders of their Abbot or leader mm-hmm , then they should be confronted, uh, privately.
And they're only given like, Two two strikes. Hmm. You know, and then if they're, if they don't correct themselves or kind of back off, then, uh, that person must be rebuked publicly. Right? Like being brought before the con. . And then even after that, if the brother doesn't like mend their ways and just, you know, recorrect themselves, then after that they're excommunicated no longer mm-hmm, allowed into the community and thrown out.
And so this is where it gets interesting when we talk about discipline, because immediately when we hear those, that act or instruction, we. Immediately put it like opposed to grace. Yeah. That how somehow Benedict is not being gracious or full of grace. Like shouldn't we not discipline one another, should we just always be full of grace and, um, you know, be kind and, and so forth.
And so that's why we're asking the question. How what's the relationship between discipl discipline and grace? Are they in competition with each other? And if not, how? Um, the way I would answer this and to begin a conversation is that every discipline. Every act of discipline and every act of grace has a tell us.
That's a fancy way of saying that every discipline and every act of grace has an end or a goal towards what they're pointing towards. So if we are disciplining somebody and the. The goal of me disciplining, let's say Julius is just to hurt him. Sure. Or to make him cry. That's the goal then I wouldn't call that disciplining, right?
No, I would call that. Just you being mean yeah. just bullied. Just me being mean and being bullied. Uh, um, but then that becomes interesting. I'll say, okay. Okay. I could call it disciplining, but then you can call it like no you're being mean, but we have to look at the end, the intended end, right? The intended goal for that.
Yeah. And so with this, what Benedict is after is a healthy goal, a healthy end, an end that seeks to reform and to, uh, refresh, renew the person. And that is what we mean by discipline. And there's a, a interesting relationship between discipline and grace.
Wilson: okay. That was, um, I found it a bit of a struggle to respond to that. Um, not because I disagreed or anything, but because it was just very concisely and well put mm-hmm . it's, it's almost like the, the mental picture forming my head is like, you just gave us the menu. And when I, when I go to the order, I always have like two or three different things and I just wait till.
The, uh, the server comes up and like, so what do you want? I, I don't think I know until I, I have to choose improv it's improv. Yeah. So you, you laid out several good things and which, which way to take, I guess it would just be the leap and see where I land. But, uh, I think it brings up some important other questions or, or points like, uh, The person is given two strikes.
That's not two strikes period, right? That's two strikes before it is brought to the whole community. Um, and some context, I think that's helpful is one, uh, even the Abbot has been chosen by the community. Mm-hmm , um, it's not just, it's not like by blood. Um, and I think there's something probably at several points throughout this whole series.
We'll talk about. Uh, some of the, the ways Benedict talks about the qualifications for people who are given mm-hmm, kind of power and responsibility over, I mean, power and responsibility period, whether it over the resources of the monastery and the, um, in the seller or the, just the overall leadership of the Abbot.
But Benedict has some really good things to say about that. The qualifications of people who are given that power, but so the. the Abbot is chosen by the community. And so the Abbot speaks quietly and that's, that's like the opposite of public shaming. Mm-hmm that's the, the first is going directly to the, and that also cuts off.
So don't miss the, that, what that cuts off is the kind of, well, here we go. Uh, uh, there's a, again, there's a, there's a big old fat toe right there, and I've got heels on and I just want to step on it. and excellent line there's um, we, we so often come at like our initial reactions are, I mean, as, as wisdom and patience prudence, like our, our first step should be to evaluate our initial reactions, prayerfully and wisely, and not just run with them because so many of our reactions to something like this are born out of inherently many, not all, but many are born out of like an inherent arrogance that like, obviously we do it better and look how ridiculous that was.
But think about. How much, because we don't have, and don't follow and, and follow in the sense of like obey. We don't treat this as this is authoritative and this is a way to do it. Mm-hmm because we don't have that sort of authoritative way to handle this, like day in, day out in our everyday communities.
Mm-hmm . Um, that's why you have so much passive aggressive. Mm-hmm, just weird gossipy nonsense where you, you don't go to the person about something that has offended you so often you don't clear up. Like what's really going on and how much you go and you start like building your little tribe against this person through insinuation, through gossip, through half truths that you don't even know that that's the full thing, but you're now talking to other people as if you know exactly why this person did that.
Yeah. Right. Um, and that, that leads to the kind of divisive, passive, aggressive nonsense. Yeah. And so really, if, if you would. take this as, oh, dang. This is gonna suck. Like nobody, my stomach churn at the thought of like looking this person in the eye and being like, so, Hey, this what was going on with that?
Hmm. But if you would do that one on one before you go before people, right? Yeah. How much, how much of that would it cut out? And how often, and this, you gotta thank most of the time. Yeah, I bet. I bet that cleared up more than half of the problems by simply going, oh, there really is no problem. Right. We just didn't really see where each other was coming from.
And now that I understand, yeah, this is, these were your intentions. I can share this with you. right. And we can just now put this behind us and both of us can do better. Um, so the, and the other piece is this is a community that's come together over an agreed to tell us. Yeah. Maybe we'll put a pin on that and talk, talk more about what that agreed.
Tell us is right. But that's what has formed his community before the Abbot took the responsibility is like the charter, the founding, like the assumptions and what, what brought this community together as a community was, and agreed, tell us to pursue Christ like. Um, and so because of that, they've chosen the Abbot, according to certain characteristics, they've chosen other leaders.
They've adopted a rule because this is our, our shared agreement. Mm-hmm and this is a chance, one where if it's been done person to person on that level and that didn't resolve it. Yeah. This is a chance for the community to come together and a. Hmm, right. It, it's not just a clear case of a hundred percent of the time in front of everybody.
This is just the chance for the Abbot to shame, uh, the, the person, this is kind of like, here's a chance for us to really hear this out. Yeah. And if something, if the Abbot's missing something. Not seeing something, then this is the chance for the community to say that. Yeah. But if the other person really on that really is at fault and is breaking the unity and is, and is making it difficult.
Yeah. For everyone to come together for the purposes that they agreed to, to come on. Yeah. This is, this is the chance for the community to, to say no, no, like this is what holds us together. This is what we're about. And you're instead of acting as my brother or my sister in this, you're making it difficult for us to be that kind of
Kevin: place.
Yeah. What I find fascinating is that. Christianity literally touches everything about our way of life as a people mm-hmm . And I think that's what St Benedek is after and realizes is that you get a bunch of people in one room in one like campus or whatever. Mm-hmm, one household and you're like, let's do life together.
It sounds great romantically. Right. And it sounds great in the head. And as an idea, let's live in a commune, let's live in a house let's like share each other's like bathrooms and like food and like dishes. And then it get to a point where like somebody pisses somebody off yeah. Or
Wilson: even, even at a certain point in you just saying those sentences, it stops sounding so great.
Exactly.
Kevin: The more you get to the specifics you're like, does it? Yeah. And so, but like a lot of the times we like to romanticize ideas and like, oh, let's live together. Right. Um, but I mean, this is what amongst did and same Ben Benedicte amongst did let's let's live together, but took it seriously. Yeah.
Okay. What happens when somebody offends somebody else? What happens when we. Someone is like causing mayhem. Like there needs to be order and a, a structure and discipline, not in an like authoritarian kind of way or disciplinarian kind of way. Right. But in a way that is for the common good of the community in a way that, um, where the discipline is aimed at, we are here to flourish.
Mm-hmm and we're here for the health of everybody and we're here AF and we're after Christ's likeness mm-hmm . So that doesn't mean we dispense. With grace or exclude grace? No, grace is, uh, shown throughout the rule. Um, but it's Al it's always intentional. It's always a play between mm-hmm , you know, being, uh, discipline and gracious.
Hmm. Uh,
Julius: I like that. Um, It's important. Like what you just highlighted there that these measures of discipline found in Benedict's rule are not there for, um, maintaining who like power for, for keeping, whoever is in power is in power in power. Just for the sake of that, just for the sake of like exerting one's authority and exploiting authority.
Right. Yeah of exploiting it, but that the, the end goal for these, um, practices, these disciplines for discipline, I guess, um, is to, to maintain like right standing and communion with one another, as they're seeking to be this community that is deepening their communion with Christ and with one another mm-hmm and that like, um, I love that the ways that you've kind of like highlighted, um, The like their way of kind of addressing conflict.
It sounds to me a lot, like they're, they're just kind of like what we've said before. They, they're kind of just really taking the words of Jesus seriously. When the disciples ask Jesus or like when Jesus is teaching about how do we handle conflicts? It sounds like they're pulling exactly from that oh, yeah.
Of like what happens when a brother or sister sends against me and then this like, It seems like that's the basis for the way that they're handling conflict here. That's
Kevin: Matthew 18, 15 through 16. There you go.
Julius: had the reference pulled up. Um, but so I, to, to kind of move this conversation even further, um, I like one of the things you said in this story portion was, um, that the, the aim for these monasteries, for these communities being created in the first place was quote to reform and heal the human person.
Toward the image of, and likeness of Jesus Christ. And so these practices in the rule of like, of discipline and the way that grace is involved with that, like are to serve that purpose of like we have as a community, like agreed to do this. And like our, our aim is for everyone in here like that, their reformation, like for, for them to be reformed into the likeness of Christ.
So can you talk to me about like, cuz that, I think that's such an important thing in like. Like maybe like shifting how we understand discipline kind of like when you, uh, how you opened up. Um, that first question was that we can see discipline as purely punitive most of the time, but this kind of reminds me of some of the discourse on like, um, like punitive versus like restorative justice of like, how do we take in mind, like the human person and what's best for their like, reformation.
So how, how then can we pull into this? Um, Like the conversation of like how this addresses sin and desire and how we can kind of orient those towards Christ and like to, to rightly orient those together as a community.
Kevin: What is required is. Perhaps a more robust definition and understanding of what sin is mm-hmm
And I think this will help illuminate and open up what St. Benedict is after there is language of things like punishment and Benedict, but he uses it in different ways than perhaps what we used to. I think a lot of time when you hear disciplining or punishment or things like that, we immediately associate it with.
Sin is a criminal act of wrong that needs to be punished or kind of like you need to retribution retribution. There's a penalty that needs to be associated with that or time that, you know, you did the wrong. So you got, or you did the crime, you gotta do the time. You did the time, kind of like that aspect.
Um, and there's elements of that in same Benedict. But what I think the heart of St Benedict is, is also included into that, is that sin is seen as that, which needs to be heal. inside a person that there is. Inward bent desire towards the bad. No, not the good, um, the way I like to put it is like, imagine like you're, you're trying to change my, my desire for cheesecake in which I love cheesecake by the way.
um, but. Let's say you're trying to change my desire for cheesecake. And you're like, I wanted to change Kevin's desire from cheesecake to like carrots or some of carrot cake, at least carrot cake, at least the middle, but something like, you know, just like, how do you, how do you change my, my taste? Right?
How do you change my desire for it? How do you change like that? I no longer want that inwardly and change it to something else. Uh, how has that come about? Is that even possible? Well St. Ben says, of course it's possible. Mm-hmm by and through the grace of God, mm-hmm, like there is something that can happen.
And within the reformation of a person that they no longer desire to wrong God or neighbor, they no, no longer desire. Like I would really wanna sin. You know, there, there is this, this journey of healing that takes place inside the person where they in St. Benedict says we can change our desires to love God and love neighbor with our whole selves.
And that's where the disciplining acts come into play is that to see these as opportunities and moments where our, my cheesecake desires can be reformed to be changed into more healthy desires or my desire to not obey authority, because I, you know, I just resent authority. I am resistant to it. Nobody can tell me what to do.
Yeah. But these acts are like, okay, maybe that. Aimed at the wrong direction. What if it, what would a healthy, uh, desire towards like respect of authority look like and how can that change me? Or like, I don't wanna wake up so early in the morning, like at 4:00 AM to pray. How can I, how can my inward desire change to be like, no, I desire that that's actually good for me.
And I need that habit in my life. Yeah. You know
Julius: what. What this all makes me think of right now is just that, like, we have to remember that these, like, are communities of people that they live. Like, all they do is like live with each other. They're not like just coworkers. They share the space, but so embedded within that is not just like, like zooming out.
It's not just like they work and then they kind of like go to their rooms or whatever. And then do you discipline them when they fight or whatever? Like. Prison. Yeah. They, they have times where they. They share meals and they sh they do joyful things together. And so there's what, what is what precedes these active discipline when conflict comes is like, hopefully ideally, right?
Like love and trust. That's built like these aren't strangers who are correcting you. These are people who lived with you. Good point. So they see what you need. Yeah. Like they see the kind of person that you are. And so like for me, like, Whenever I, I need like a hard correction. I'm more likely to receive that from someone who I know like who I trust and who I know like loves and trusts me.
And so like for us, just outsiders kind of just, just looking at words, like maybe some of these things can seem harsh, but we have to like look in and be like, No. Well, these are community like they love and trust each other in this community. And that's a huge part of them like walking into the discernment process of like, what does my brother need?
If he's falling asleep in morning, prayer, do I have to slap him in the back of the head or just let him rest on my lap? Right. That, that requires knowledge and love. Right?
Wilson: That being that like some brothers. A lap to rest in, and some brothers need a slap in the back of the head in that case. And, and it takes relationship and discernment to know the difference. Mm-hmm, , you know, it's not just a, an abstract universal principle, right. That can be applied the same way in all situations in all times.
Right. You learn that. And that's, um, there are places where I, I mean, over and over this, this comes out in our podcast. It's part of the whole, like the whole Shama thing is mm-hmm, a, a lot of. Of what is good and right. Um, if you really under, if you, if you take like one piece of God's creation and you really look at what's good and right about it, you're gonna see how it's connected to other things.
Hmm. You you'll find the, this stuff flowing in and out of each other. Mm-hmm um, which is why classically so many like philosophical and religious schools talk about their being like an ultimate unity in a convergence of all these things in the creator. Mm-hmm um, so wherever you find the goodness, if you.
Chase. What's good. Trace it down. You'll find it connected to other things. Right. So if you get a good definition of discipline, you'll start asking questions about grace. A good definition of justice. You'll start asking about well retribution or punishment, right? Mm-hmm the whole, you'll start talking about, tell us and endpoint, right?
Mm-hmm and if you get a good definition of, um, Uh, sin, that's gonna lead you to a better understanding of what grace is, which will lead to a better understanding of what discipline is. There are two points I wanna make on that based on what you laid out, Kevin. Yeah. So one of the places where, um, this can flow in and out of each other, but our world has so fragmented it, which by the way, that's like, that's one of the, I mean, that's deeply tied to one of the words for the devil.
Right. The Greek Diablo, which comes to what's diabolical or the devil mm-hmm is really one who fractures breaks apart and scatters that's like what evil does, that's what the devil does. And so there are places where we can still today. See if you, if you know where to look, there's places where you get a fragment of this truth, where you understand that.
And one of those places is people and I talk more and more about to some people that are really, really good at building cultures and hiring people. Mm. One of the biggest things they talk about is the people that really learn are the people that have been in these environments before just going to school and having all kinds of info in your head from textbooks about it.
He's like that's only one piece, but what I'm interested in is talk to me about your friends. Yeah. Talk to me about what you guys did when you weren't in the classroom. Talk to me about how you live when you weren't taking a test yeah. About organizational culture. And that's where you start to see the, the people that know how to do this, have experienced some of it.
And so if you wanna reform desires, what do you do? You put them in a place where that is the case where you give them a taste of it. And you, you get to taste the goodness of it, but if you're not acclimated to it, just like, if you've been like dead asleep in pitch darkness and someone flips on the lights, right.
Initially there's often gonna be reaction. And so there's gonna be a need for discipline. Yeah. There's gonna be a kickback because. Our tastes have not conformed. Yeah. Our eyes have not acclimated. And so there's gonna be a need for that kind of discipline, but that's exactly what allows you to keep like on letting them taste what's healthy until they start to recognize, yeah, this is healthy and good.
And then they start to desire it. Right? So discipline is part of this grace that allows them to actually come to love mm-hmm and, and acclimate to what is good and healthy. And so that's what leads to the other thing that I wanted to do. Mm-hmm from, you know what I said, initially, in response to what Kevin just laid out, um, about the interconnectedness of what's good.
If you come to a better. Definition of sin and understanding partially how you come to a better understanding of what sin is, is you experience a, a community that's being sanctified. And, and as you come to see, what's good, you get to recognize what's genuinely not for this kind of life giving community.
And if you get to see what sin is, that it's a desire for death. It's a taste for things that ultimately it might give a good sugar rush. Mm-hmm , it might be instantly pleasing, but ultimately it's gonna lead to something unhealthy and death dealing. Right. So that's why as the drive you talked about, uh, cheesecake carrot, cake and carrots, um, But the, I think I like to think of it as like, just playing on the word drive mm-hmm if you're, if you're like, if all of us are in a van and Kevin gets distracted and drives the van off a cliff, mm-hmm right.
If that's something, a picture of what sin is and, and it is, it's not perfect, but that's, that's pretty good. Like sin is the something that leads to ultimately to death. Yeah. That leads us to understand that grace has to be more than we typically think of mm-hmm because usually it kind. Reactively now we think of grace as just pardon?
Yeah. Um, and it's not just pardon. Like that. I mean, if, if Kevin drives the van, you know, everything slows down in these sorts of like life and death situations. Yes. And so Kevin looks at us and he's genuinely repentant. Like, I'm sorry guys. Like I drove the car off the cliff and we're forgiving and we pardoned him.
We forgive you, Kevin, we're still gonna die. Right. Like, and, and grace is not just pardon? Pardon can be a piece of grace, but it's not the full thing. Grace is actually divine power, the divine power for life that can, that can correct our death drives. And so if you see that grace is again, not just pardon, not just permissiveness, but grace is divine power actively coming to us to correct our drives away from what's deadly to what is life giving mm-hmm
Then you see how then grace sin leads to a better understanding of grace, which then flows organically into a good understanding of discipline. But if you have, if you really are a gracious community, you're gonna be a disciplining community.
Kevin: Almost like to highlight the medicinal side of grace and sin.
I, I said, sin can be interpreted as that, which needs to be healed. And grace is the healing ointment, the bomb that heals, cuz we're all, we're all diseased, right? We all have symptoms of this stuff and it's almost like we're all sick in the hospital. And grace is that which heals. and so discipline in that sense, I think recovers and rejuvenates that I need discipline.
Right. I mean, it may be painful. It certainly will be painful. Yeah. But I need it for my healing.
Julius: Yeah.
So given all that, as we're moving towards this more like healing, uh, understanding of discipline and grace and how. Interact. Um, there are, I mean, I there's measures in here about like, if all else fails that like people do get excommunicated from these communi, from these communities. Yeah. How, um, in light of everything that we've kind of just said, um, how can we begin to understand something as drastic as even excommunication as something that can be.
Kevin: Gracious or, yeah. And I mean, that's the reality. I mean, it's in scripture as well. Um, Spread throughout, but also in Benedict's rule of life, there is mention of like, what I had said before that if a brother commits this, these things like X amount of times, then the last result is they're excommunicated from the community mm-hmm and they're thrown out essentially.
Like you're not welcome back here. And , it sounds like very incredibly. Difficult to redeem and it seems unnecessarily. Have you ever
Wilson: blocked anybody on Twitter?
Julius: that is good.
Kevin: Yeah. There we go. Block somebody on Facebook, basically. Yeah. Why? Because they're, they're being kind of a creeper.
Wilson: Yeah. Have you ever like set boundaries with somebody in your personal contact in intimate spaces?
Mm-hmm like
Kevin: we all.
Wilson: We all know it's good. Yeah. We all know it. I mean, not good as in like, yay. This is fun, but we all know it it's sometimes necessary. Yeah, it
Kevin: is. And I wanna highlight, put some weight on that sometimes. Um, I would say, and I think Benedict opens gives this, you know, allowance that this should be like the last resort.
Right. It's listed as the last thing on. The instructions. Yeah. Like this is, oh
Wilson: shoot. Not the first
Kevin: Ooh, I'm getting there. Okay. uh, if it's the first and that's why I think a lot of our reactions. Stem from, because like let's not be exclusive. Right. Let's be inclusive. And then immediately we hear excommunication like, whoa, whoa, all the radars go off. Right. Um, I do wanna name the abuse and the bad that excommunication has been used.
Um, if it is the first thing leaders, people, politicians, pastors, mm-hmm Christians, CEOs, CEOs, CEOs. Sirens rulers police yes. The list goes on. The list goes on. Um, if it's the first thing, then that's abusive. That's harmful the end towards, I mean, you can, there's so many ends in Deloy that that can, that is aimed at, but, um, so that's the helpful metaphor that comes to mind is to think of excommunication as a.
Mm, um, a sword, you know, just think of that. Mm-hmm and I believe it can be used in so many different ways. Um, it can definitely be used to hurt somebody to cause someone to bleed and even kill somebody mm-hmm and there have been moments where excommunicating throwing somebody out has like, probably literally, but even like spiritually killed people.
Um, but a blade cannot. It's not, that's not the only exclusive use a blade can be used. Mm-hmm , you know, to cut a watermelon, to cut coconuts, to cut mangoes. It, it can even used in the me, uh, medical area where it's used to literally for, uh, surgical purposes, mm-hmm, , it can be used to heal and to defend, um, and to guard and to protect yeah.
In those ways. And so in the same way, I like to propose that we need to think of excommunication like that to see it as a way to, um, Protect the good of the community and also to protect the person, the brother that is, you know, essentially being excommunicated out, cuz they're for whatever reason at a place where they can no longer, actually them being part of the community is causing further and further harm to them and to others.
And so that perhaps we can bestow this person. In the hands of God to even greater healing that this actually in some counterintuitive way, that this is actually for the good of the person and the community.
Wilson: I mean, it's in the word X communicate and communication there in the, in the deeper like etymological, like roots of it is not just communicating information.
Mm-hmm , it's like, really? What are you communi? And excommunication as the last resort is it's merely meant to be. And this is the thing, the way Benedict, lays out the whole process, the way it's talked about in scripture, it would be, um, through, through the whole, the whole process from person to person, face to face to community like discernment.
Yeah. To that place where it is. It's been clear. Um, now that, that. That whatever the community is found, founded on sharing is not happening. That kind of communication is not happening. Mm-hmm and what is being communicated is something else. Hmm. You know, just like a diseased organ can be communicating the disease to the rest of the body.
Right. And so the that's where you said, even as the, the end goal, there is protection to, to surgically remove and protect the communication. And it's done only when it's clear the communion is broken mm-hmm . And so now, as a part of clearly communicating in action, the truth mm-hmm the communi like the communion is broken now.
Let's make sure that that is visibly communicated too. Mm-hmm that that's clear through this. Right. It makes visible and outward. What is already like the case. You don't communicate someone that isn't struggling, but is still genuinely sharing the communion, even in their struggle. Um, you're, you're making clear what is already the case, and that is for the person, because it's, if that keeps going, if that happens, if you really do carry out the process, the way scripture and Benedict lays it out.
Mm. and it gets to that point, then what's also clear is the person that is spreading, whatever division, whatever, like is breaking the community. Mm-hmm , they're not communicating in the grace. They're not communicating with there. They're getting, they're getting something else out of exactly the role that they keep playing.
Mm-hmm and it's not good for them to keep getting that. Right. Instead of, instead of thriving in and longing for the grace and the communion with God and with the community, what they're getting is some sort of like sense of identity out of being whatever the problem. And, and it's feeding something in them.
That's why they keep doing it. They may not even know what they're getting at that they keep coming back for, but there's something. Like somebody addicted to a poisonous substance, they keep coming back and there's something that they're getting out of that, that, and that's why it's even for their good, they need to be severed from whatever you know, is giving them the fix whatever's giving 'em the adrenaline jolt whatever's giving 'em that sense of like identity in being the rebel or the black sheep mm-hmm or whatever that is right.
To, to cut them off so that they start to hunger and then you can feed them the right thing.
Kevin: What that brought out to mind was that the, the person, their, their, their direction, the, the end, the tell us towards which they're pointing to. Is misaligned with the communities. Mm-hmm, that loss and their own true.
Tell us. Yeah. And in their own true. Tell us. And now, now that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be excommunicated because like all of us yeah, true. Are not all completely aligned with the community, but that person has also refused the willingness to at least make, you know, inch ever, ever closer towards the communities.
Tell us, they're like, no, I have my own. Tell us. And nobody else can tell me what my tell us. My end. And so at that point, it's like, then you have to, you can no longer be part of this, cuz our ends are completely different. Even for myself. If I find myself here, at least I hope and pray that I haven't openness and willingness to be like, okay, I'm not there yet, but please help me like take steps in that direction.
And there St. Benedict would say, you're welcomed here.
[MUSIC TRANSITION TO MEDITATION]
MEDITATION
[PAD AND MELODY SWELL AND FADE THROUGHOUT]
It's incredibly easy to conflate mercy and grace. But grace doesn't just alleviate or remove consequences.
It heals. It restores. And more than freeing you from the past, it sets you toward a better future.
And we want to help you experience grace in as many of the infinite numbers of ways God can deliver it as we can.
But, often, in preparing these meditations, we run up against the very real limits of the podcast medium.
So before we make any suggestions here, we want to acknowledge, there is abusive and dysfunctional authority. And there are unhealthy communities that are not genuinely lined up with a good end. And we know nothing about your contexts.
So you'll need to use discretion in the ways you seek to find grace delivered through discipline and obedience.
And, let's not forget, that you'll need to use discretion in the ways you seek to help others find grace delivered through discipline and obedience.
The key, is whether or not love is the final goal.
So, if you can honestly say love is what is motivating you, what's one bit of feedback you could give someone that really could help them that you've been holding back on sharing because of fear or insecurity?
What would be the most loving way you could share that with them?
Picture the setting, and hear your words but also your tone, see your posture.
Imagine what good end it might lead to.
Can love lead you to deliver it?
And what's a bit of difficult feedback or advice you've received from someone you really could believe genuinely does have your best interest at heart?
What's a bit of difficult feedback or advice you've received that really could help you become more Christlike?
What would it look like to trust it?
See the outcome, the difference it would make, in you, and in your circumstances. See the good end that it could lead to.
Can love enable you to let someone else help discipline your wayward desires and direct you toward greater well-being, and healing, as you receive their difficult words with the same respect, grace, and love in which they were given?
[END]