INTRO
Knowing the physics of flight -- how lift, drag, and thrust work to get a body off the ground -- is not the same as watching the ground drop below you as the clouds surround you.
Knowing what musical modes are and being able to tell someone John Coltrane used these in innovative ways to push free jazz forward is not the same as putting an intuition in your soul into notes in the air for anyone with ears to hear.
Knowing the Queens Gambit or what a force out is in baseball is not the same as besting a worthy opponent in Chess or feeling your legs take you somewhere your conscious mind may not even know you need to go so you can feel the ball hit your glove and throw where you should to get an out for your team.
And knowing that Jesus said do not worry, and love your enemies, is not the same as feeling the lightness of trust take root in your gut or feeling bitterness lose its grip on your chest.
Some things, you have to practice to understand.
So in this series, we hope to help you practice your faith so you can know salvation.
This time we explore what we might do to counteract the utter mess that could result from having a whole bunch of people having a large set of powerful tools for getting what they want.
STORY:
We talk a lot about habits here. And not just biting nails or twirling hair or humming while we think. We talk about how when some of us get lonely, with little to no thought, we withdraw and wait for others to reach out, while others of start making plans and shooting out invites. And how when we feel vulnerable some of us habitually get aggressive and pick fights while others go fishing for compliments or hole up in our homes and blow through three seasons of Downton Abbey or Knight Rider - tastes may vary, but the habit is the same.
We talk about habits like this every few episodes and almost constantly in our daily meetings because they have a powerful role in shaping not just what we do, but who we are.
There is tradition tying habits and identity and vocation that we find goes back millennia to Jewish wisdom literature like Proverbs and some of the letters in the New Testament like 1 and 2 Peter, and through towering figures like Aristotle and St. Benedict.
But the business, productivity, and self-improvement worlds have caught on to the power of habits, too. In about the last half-decade, they've turned this ancient wisdom into a cutting-edge fad.
Ten years ago, if you wanted to learn to be more successful and decided to take a college course or enrolled in training your company provided or grabbed one of the top selling business books on an endcap at Barnes and Noble, odds are really good you would have taken an assessment to reveal to you your natural talents and strengths, then heard a good deal about how to lean into those strengths as you did your work and chased your personal goals in fitness and developing relationships.
Now, odds are very good you'd hear about developing high-performance habits aligned with your goals and how to stack good habit on good habit, just like other massively successful people have.
There are three, quite good books, on Habits that we are not going to name though we'll admit to using one of them in our Shema program. Together these books have spent a good deal of time on Top of the New York Times bestseller list and sold a collective bajillion copies (that's not an exact count).
There is something obviously good here. These are worthy books that really can help people with a whole range of important things. We use one of them in our training. And they are tapping into a deep and venerable tradition.
But we see a few problems looming. Mainly stemming from the parts of the Tradition they tend to overlook.
In episode 17 from this season, which we released right around New Years, we talked about the way our habits always carry beliefs with them. And so when adopted and carried out over time, these habits engrain these beliefs in us at an instinctual level.
And this can be great, redemptive even, or this can be terrible. A habit can get into our bones and reflexes the truth that God is love and we are God's children, and the peace that comes with that, or the false belief that we are not good enough and that God does not love us and all the anxiety that comes with that lie.
Turning this insight to the current usage of habits helps us discern that habits simply imported into the world of wealth and power can help someone see impressive gains in their wealth and power, even as they engrain unhealthy, false beliefs about money and success and what makes a good life.
In episode 17 a key point was that the beliefs our habits carry might not be what we think they are, and might be in conflict with what we want to believe.
So in this episode, it's time to talk about the way, just like habits always carry beliefs, they are always also aimed at something, and that goal might not be what we think, or lead to what we really want.
What's telling, when it comes to aiming our habits, is what parts get left out or ignored from the Tradition that extends way past the last decade. Contemporary teachers applying habits to business and self-development are aware enough of the the sources of what they are inheriting and adapting to cite Aristotle and even sometimes monastics like St. Benedict. But what's rarely dealt with the way Aristotle's training in habituating virtue was always aimed at (and determined by) the greater good of the polis, or city-state. And monasticism is all about developing the person by simultaneously developing a common life in Christ.
What we never allow the ancient tradition to challenge and refine, is our contemporary tradition of radical individualism and our own ideas about what constitutes a good life and brings happiness.
Some of the teachers in this field do try to leverage habits to make their clients into the kinds of people who would want to contribute to the common good. But this common good is undefined, and no way is given for working alongside other people to discern just what this common good might be. So even our common life gets squeezed into an individualist framework. The question, "How can you contribute to the common good," remains another version of the question, "What do you want?" It's really, "What do you want to be good for everyone? How do you want to feel good about what you've done for others?"
So, the problem that to us seems imminent, is what happens in a culture whose stories carry messages like "you can have it all and be anything you want to be," and then eerily mix in other messages of scarcity - only 2 left in stock, order now; only 30% of new businesses last more than 3 years; housing prices are skyrocketing because demand has reached unprecedented levels while supplies have dropped to record lows -
And so what happens if we train and equip a bunch of people to get really good at getting what they want and then turn them loose in a cultural environment radically shaped by competition?
In a tradition where it always falls back to each individual to define, according to their own opinions and desires, what the common good is, what happens if 4 million different people have 4 million totally different ideas about what will be best for others, and run off with powerful tools for implementing their own agendas?
To engage this, in the conversation that follows, Julius and I discuss how participating in a healthy religious tradition can harmonize personal habits with the common good in something called a practice.
DISCUSSION
Julius: Welcome back to “All Things” podcast. This is Julius and Wil. And Wil, today, I would like to ask you some questions…
Wilson: Oh, that's what we're doing. Switching it up. Huh?
Julius: You know, not like the other times. Um, but, picking up from the story that came before this, and you introduced kind of this.. trend that's happening culturally, where there is a lot of literature on habits, uh, specifically in the world of, like, productivity and chasing one's personal goals, or like business and career goals…
And in talking about this cultural trend, I think you said something really insightful in naming this problem that, um, habits as a means of just chasing personal goals without a view of the collective good can be prone to things like furthering violence and conflict. And I mean, we're about bold claims on this podcast and that feels like a, that feels like a bold claim, but I think there's really something there.
And I'd be really curious to hear you elaborate more on how, um, chasing the narrative of fulfilling our individual goals without keeping in mind the good of the whole can be really violent.
Wilson: Yeah. So I think first to name there's, there's a good impulse here. We’re not like fully calling out or saying it's wholly evil or any, any of that kind of nonsense. There's something good, and people are right to recognize—and we affirm it, that people are right to recognize—that, that thinking about habits and desires and the way they interrelate really can like unlock empowerment and agency for people, which is a good thing.
We are about that. But there has to be something more. Or I think what we're, what we're poised to give people is just quick, um… impressive results, but very short term that could then end up in an even greater disappointment. I've got this word picture or this image in my head that will be a word picture once I get it out in podcast format…
But, I keep thinking of this game that I used to play with my cousins in, in the 1980s. Um, I think it was called something like Crossfire… but it had this board that was some geometric shape, like a, you know, like a hexagon or a pentagon or something like that. Uh, and with each side there was like a little slingshot set up, you know, with a thick rubber band…
And each player had these little, like, it was basically a marble, but then, you know, it was made to look cooler, like some sort of like, I don't know… battle/space ship or something, whatever. And you, they’re all aimed together at the center, right? And you, you put your little marble there in the rubber band and pull it back, um, and then let them go and they crash together.
And I think that's something like what's happening here with what we're doing with the habits. There's a good impulse that’s like, give you some strength and let's help you aim towards something that you want… But if there's not something helping us aim together, then at some point, our aims are going to like cross sect or cross-sect, I mean, it’s, it’s crossfire.
And if all we've got is individual habits, then the only recourse we have at that point is to fight it out. And so then the, the mighty will stay mighty and, and the weak will stay weak. The have-a-lot, will stay the, have-a-lots and the have-nots will stay the have-nots. And, and at that point, we're not giving ourselves any way to think about, to habituate, and resource ourselves to do this together instead of just hitting at this point, where it's you or me.
Julius: Hmm. It's interesting. The whole time that kind of, we were talking about that. I was, um… I think… At first, it's easy to kind of react to that statement and be like, “Oh, maybe that's catastrophizing a little bit,” of like a, “Oh every personal goal can lead to violence?” And that's not necessarily what we're saying. I think that like, uh, like…
We don't want to sound like we are trying to impose like one homogenous goal on every one, but in some ways, like we… we as humanity, and especially with people who, like, believe in the Christian story, who believe in Christ, um, that there is a common good that we are striving towards. But uh, so what I was thinking about, like was, um, I started to kind of list some of the very common, “Oh, what do people kind of strive for in life?” Right.
And it's like, okay, there's the very obvious like, “Oh, I want lots of money.” That's a very obvious, like that can get violent real quick. Like. People get rich at the expense of others.
Or power, right? That’s an, that's an easy one. Like, “Oh, I want to have a lot of influence,” and influence comes at the expense of like, um, imposing, uh, like oppression on other people…
But then there's stuff like, “I just want to have fun,” but even that is like, “Okay, well, how do you want to have fun?” It’s like, “I want to eat good food.” And it's like, that's great. Like that's, um, that can, that can be benign, but at a certain level, it's like a, “Well, where are you getting your food from?”
Like, or, uh, th-the everything that we participate in is so connected. Like even down to like, “Oh, food's benign.” Right. But then like it's worth thinking about, “Oh, is where I'm getting this food from sourced properly?” “Are the people who are involved in making this, like being treated fairly?” or like, “What are its implications on the earth? Like, are we treating the earth fairly?”
So w-every goal, like, just points to the fact that we… It, it, it breaks down the illusion that like, we are just individuals who live in a vacuum, but every single thing that we do is connected to the whole of humanity and how like the universe operates. And so, it is worth asking the question for even the most maybe commonplace and benign-seeming goals of like, “Oh, how does this participate in the…” cause we can't like extract ourselves from the universe.
Wilson: So, cards on the table, what I— you're right, we're not here to impose a single homogenous, uh, end goal for everyone’s, y’know, personal goals and desires… but we are, I am hoping to woo, or to win imaginations and hearts toward the desire to align your goals and your desires with the kingdom of God.
Now, but the key point then for us will be to start to show how the kingdom of God, understood well, is not just imposing some homogenous, “Well, this is what we say and so here's how it is.” Uh, and so in moving towards that, this is why, you know, the, the concept of practice that we're going to talk about, I think will help us think on both ends of that: How as an end goal is the kingdom of God different and better than just imposed order?
Um, and, uh, how can the practice, or how can the idea of a practice help us genuinely align with something so good and rich as the kingdom of God.
Julius: Well, just to launch directly from what you just said, um, you've mentioned… teah, like just now, immediately, and also in the story prior, how the concept of practice as something being distinct from just habits or technique is, like, a part of the solution or like beg- like, it helps us to begin to answer that question of like, “How can we do this? How can we live well?” and, um, without just furthering conflict by chasing like the, our, individual goals.
Can you explain more about what, what that word ‘practice’ means in this context and how it differs from just habits or technique?
Wilson: Right. Yeah, let's take that as, as the goal of this section, is just to make it really clear, for anyone listening, what, what we mean by practice. Um, naming our influences here, I guess this would be like a verbal footnote. We're drawing from the work of a very prominent, um, moral philosopher named Alasdair MacIntyre.
Uh, who in a, in a super important book called After Virtue, just exploring like, okay… With all the modern turns with everything that's happened to culture and with the way so many things have, like, broken down and, and so many other things that used to hold this together have been critiqued, right… So now, in what way, how do we think about doing something together in a way that's genuinely good? Right, that pulls out of this. And so how can we think about this? And in that work after virtue is where he defines the word practice. And a lot of people have gotten a lot of mileage out of this because it's good.
But in that, he has this notoriously long complex definition of what a practice is. Um, but then he goes in to talk about some specific practices and it's like, “Oh yeah, I get that. I get that.”
So we're going to reverse his order and we're going to do that. And let's just talk, let's name a couple practices, talk about what they are, and then we'll tell you like, these are the key components and how it works together in this thought.
So when we, when we say practice, I think the first thing is to make really, really clear that we're, we're talking about a larger collective activity. Um, we're not talking about just a, an individual practicing, a specific skill, right? So w-you know, we're not talking about me picking up my guitar and running scales. You know. It's not just me practicing that skill, or it's not me going out into the yard and practicing throwing a baseball into a net to improve my accuracy.
Uh, it’s, it’s not just refining a certain skill. What we're talking about is what those skills can come together to participate in. So, music— that's a practice. Baseball, that's a practice. Right. So just even that, just to make that distinction, we're not talking about when we say practice now, in this context, in the next, you know, however many minutes this podcast runs, we're not talking about me going out and practicing batting, but we are talking about something like baseball.
We're not talking about me practicing the solo from Sweet Child o Mine. We're talking about music. Right. And so. Individual skills can contribute to this larger practice, this larger. Good. Right. So that's that's the first bit. And then maybe let's just talk through, let’s pick, like baseball—I’ll, I’ll pick… baseball is the practice that, that I'll think and talk about.
And Julius, what's a, what's a practice that you've been engaging in, cause this, cause this here's, uh, just, uh, we'll lay this down and we'll see how this comes back. It's super important to get this, that, to really get it. You gotta participate. Right. You can't really get it if you're just sitting back abstractly thinking about it.
So even us talking about it, it's, it's telling a story, stories are super important to this and, and you got to kind of begin to know how to learn it from the inside. So I'll, I'll pick baseball, Julius what’s something you've been participating in?
Julius: I mean, you'd think that I would say music cause I use music analogies a lot, but to stray from that a little bit, but to be also at the risk of sounding cliche with the music, the musician cliche, I have been getting into like coffee, uh, as a practice. And, um, I feel like I also want to pick that to be kind of a stand in for the listener of like, “Oh, you, like, there are lots of commonplace things that are part of a larger practice.”
Um, and so I will kind of process that with you. But just to kind of help illustrate, like—I think we all on some level understand what this is, and it's better to just kind of start with the concrete and then zoom out and be like, “Oh, this is part of something.”
Wilson: All right. So, so pick it up on base. Uh, one of the things that, that baseball players, fans, a lot of talk is happening is just the role of money in baseball. And a lot of people feel like the game is getting corrupted because it's more and more about. The money. I even heard a baseball announcer recently when I was, when I was watching a game, a player who's, you know, they've been producing really, really well for about five years, um, and said, so now he's at the point where he can, he can enter into free agency, leave the team, go out and get the big contract and quote, that's what it's about.
Cool. And really that angered a lot of people because if that's what baseball is all about, uh, then it's about what MacIntyre would call it's become about for that announcer may be for that player is becoming about what MacIntyre would call an “external good”. So that's one of the important conceptual pieces to understand with practice, a practice is not about, should not be about isn't its fullest thing when it becomes about an external good.
So when you're talking about baseball and it's, so, I mean, it’s funny how many different practices can be twisted, like you've already mentioned towards power, uh, towards money, towards pleasure—you know, a certain kind of cheap pleasure. Right. Um, so when baseball becomes just about money, it gets twisted towards an external good.
And, and if you're a purist, if you cared about the thing, you feel like something there has been lost. And what's important, what's, what's really helpful here, is MacIntyre says one of the key ways to distinguish between an internal good— which is genuinely good— and an external good that begins to corrupt and misdirect the practice, is, this is super… there are always alternative ways to achieve the external good. Right?
So you don't have to be a world famous baseball player to become world famous. There are lots of ways that you can get into like trending feeds, right? There are lots of ways you can get your face on a billboard or on television, right?
So there are always alternative ways to achieve an, uh, an external good, but when you're really practicing something, there's no other way to achieve that good.
Julius: Hm.
Wilson: Right. So there are lots of ways to get famous, but this point, and also— I guess if people care about this, I'm a Cardinals fan— so Cardinals have this long standing historical rivalry with the Cubs. But even with that, I couldn't help, but get caught up in 2016. Right because it it's been like this long story about the Cubs curse and they're doomed to mediocrity and it's been over a century and they haven't won a world series.
And then in 2016, they win the world series. Like, you can, you can twist that towards fame. You can twist that towards power or towards influence towards money that comes with endorsements and all that kind of stuff. But the internal good there—that’s something that's only felt by the player. His name was Chris Bryant, chase down the last ball, threw it for the final out that in 2016, that finally after centuries broke the curse and the Cubs finally win a world series.
Only Chris Bryant really, really knows the true internal good of that moment. Right? You don't have to be a baseball player to, to feel that, but you have to be a base- or you don't have to be a baseball player to experience, you know, power, winning, you know, whatever— but you have to be a baseball player to know what that moment was for someone like Chris Bryant. And that's an internal good, key to a practice.
Julius: Yeah, It's like a, it's a qualitative thing. You know, there's things that are easy to quantify. Like, uh, oh, I can, I can wrap my head around winning a medal or whatever, but like the feeling of like playing the game and playing it well— that's something that you have to kind of be a participant in it. And so to, to kind of bring my 2-cents into this as I process, um— I brought up coffee and honestly, I always feel really hesitant about bringing that up unless it's around people that I trust or like the people that I live with, um.
Because I feel like with coffee in particular and the kind of tropes that, that comes with being like a musician and like the art scene and like living in the neighborhood that I live in with a bunch of like hipsters who love talking about coffee—that, I think a lot of the resistance to it that I, that at least I feel, and I can be self-conscious about is because of that distinction between internal and external goods and the ways that people are like, “Ugh, talking about coffee, like, of course…” that that kind of like scoffing reaction comes from exposure to people who perhaps, um, may embody like…
Chasing the external good of it, of like, uh, “Oh, I, I want to talk about this because it gives me some kind of like “in" on like a social status,” like the external good. There is like, oh, I want to feel like an insider in this like club. And so that's, that's when people can be perceived as pretentious, if it's like a, oh, this is the external good that we're chasing is how can we be as exclusive as possible, on like some obscure thing, right. But…
Wilson: Yeah, your hesitancy even does a good job of highlighting the difference between an external good and internal. Good. And you're hesitant because you don't, you're enjoying it now, something good is happening, and you don't want it to get twisted towards any of those.
Julius: Right. Exactly. And I think it's like people can snuff that out with anything, of just like.. People are—and I would like to be gracious to even like, even these kinds of people, but like—I just think of high school, you know, I just think of, even with something like guitar of like someone who's like really into guitar, but they're just in it to be cool or like to get girls or guys or whatever.
Um, and people can snuff that out. And those are the people that like, oh, you can kind of roll your eyes at them because. You can tell when someone's doing something for the external reward of it and not because they want to play the thing, or learn or like engage in the thing.
And so what I found with coffee, and maybe this is a helpful step, is like, I think it has a lot of connections to why people really enjoy cooking and culinary arts, is that there's a real qualitative reward to just like… to knowing how to prepare something that, um.
Like, uh, tasting a good cup of coffee is like part of the internal good, but it's not exactly it, you know, it's like knowing that you made it, you know, like tasting a [00:31:02] good like steak or something like. That's almost the internal good that you're chasing when you're cooking.
But it's also the fact that like, “Oh, I did the process right,” you know, like, uh, “I got a good sear on this thing.” Or like, uh, “Oh, I got the water temperature and the grind setting just right.” There's something really rewarding about like, knowing that you were involved in the process. Um, That is distinct from just sure.
I could go to a, like a top tier coffee shop or like a steak house or like a Michelin star rated, like, restaurant. And that will satisfy the need of like, “Oh, okay. This tastes good.' But then there's even like a certain. Your appreciation for that is elevated. Once you've started to try to like, “Oh, like, I want to learn how to make pour overs at home, or like how to pull an espresso shot at home.”
Or like, "I want to learn how to like, cook a good steak home” or like, to like make this dish that your qualitative experience, even then of going to a restaurant or a good coffee shop is heightened because of your participation in the practice where like… now if I go to a coffee shop, I'm like, oh my goodness.
Like they did. So. Or like, if I go to a good restaurant, it's like a look at the browning on, on this chicken, look at the sear, they got the temp perfect. Like a… once you're in it. Like you, you start to, um. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I, I think what I'm trying to get at is there is a qualitative difference and it's truly like…
Part of it for me is like a heart thing.
Wilson: Right. Yes. Yeah.
Wilson: So one of the things you just did there and tracing out like chasing what's really. In the case of this practice as the practice would define it, not just in an abstract will power. Good and, well, money's good. Who doesn't want money. Right. But as in trying to like, okay, what's going on here? What's the story of this thing.
And so what, what really is the goal? And that, and really chasing that. Yeah. It helped you begin to talk about the good, but it also see how it just organically led you to talk about the heart thing. That's one of the things that's so good about MacIntyre's work that I find just so compelling is how there are distinctions.
There are different moments and components to this thing, to his conception of a practice, but they also integrate so well and flow in and out of each other. And that kind of internal coherency is, is, is powerful and compelling because what you just went through there is from the internal goods to the relationship there to virtues, right.
So in a, in a practice, another part that becomes important is for the practitioners to develop virtues. But these aren't just abstract—“Well, it's the ability to get stuff done," right? It's not just the, what tends to be broadly like culturally valued as well, leadership skills. Well, what does that mean?
It doesn't, you know, and when it's not a practice, it doesn't necessarily mean they have the ability to lead us towards this internal good. It means something more like, “Well, they make money for shareholders,” right. And it doesn't matter if it's through cost. Or it's a baseball owner, right? This is that's one of the— uh, sorry, I'm going to switch back a little bit to external goods…
Another thing that's helpful that back our points out is external goods are almost always realized as property of some…
Julius: Oh.
Wilson: But internal goods are experienced as a certain quality within the whole community within all the practitioners. Right? And so that's why it leads into virtue. Right. So the virtues there are developed you don't just name this off the board, right?
It's not just—you can't just pre-describe, well, it's, it's the ability to make money or this or that. You, you learn the virtues as you get in. You practice it. Right. Um, and, and the virtue there is what allows the internal goods to be realized, not external goods. And so sure, a virtue would be skill—there’ll be certain skills in baseball that are virtues…
But if what you're chasing is not just the player’s status or the money, or not just the shareholders profitability for the team, but you're chasing an internal good, it also means certain heart things and characteristics, things that allow you to be a team player that allow you to do step up and give extra, but to also sacrifice and other places, right.
To, to allow the team to journey together, not towards a few people's property, but towards the, the community experiencing what baseball can be together.
Julius: Yeah. I, I um, It's about the kind of person that you are, I think, is how I I'm learning how to understand it. And going back to being a musician now, um, what helped illuminate that word for me is the ties between virtue and the word virtuoso—of like, uh, oh, they are like a virtuoso guitar player or a virtuoso, like, violinist or something like that.
Um, that term makes sense to me because it's like a, oh, a virtual. So. Defined by they know 50 pieces. Like they are proficient in all 12 keys. Or like they can play up to 210 BPM? I dunno. Like, um, it's not just those things, but it's the kind of person that they
Wilson: I can play whole notes at 210 bpm…
Julius: Yeah, exactly. [Laughs] “They can play on time??”
Um, that's part of it and it's part of it, you know, that they're able to execute these things, but it's like a, it's a qual it's, um, it's a character thing when, when it taps it like, like virtue taps, like, uh, at a character thing and they're traits that, like I said, it's the kind of person that you become.
So talking about back to like coffee and, um, culinary arts, right. I think about… I am not a chef. [Laughs] Like, even if I like, even if I make one good meal, I don't consider myself virtuosic at the practice of culinary arts. Um, because like to follow a recipe to the tee and time everything, and then like, for it to turn out, to be a good meal, like… if I'm, if I'm tethered to just like, following the page. And like, maybe by some fluke, I get like a good meal out of it, like…
I'm not quite embodying the virtues yet because it's not like, like I don't have the same engagement with a thing as a chef would where a chef understands, like what's going on on like a deep. Like core, like heart level of like, uh, I was, I was talking to my girlfriend's sister.
She studied culinary arts and I was talking to her about making steaks. And I was like, “You don't time things??" Or like, “You don't use a thermometer??” And she was like, “Yeah, like, I, I,” like… “I can tell when the sear is done because of the color of it, or like how it smells or like how the texture of the meat feels,” you know, like all of that stuff. It, it has become ingrained into the kind of person that she is, that she's attuned to these things that don't need like that defy like metrics. You know, it's a, it's a certain attunement with the world and with the practice.
Wilson: Right. And so again there are distinct moments and elements to it. But just to again show as, uh, what I hope is a compelling thing, the way they flow in and out of each other, you start to name the internal goods, that helps you realize what kind of virtues are there that would allow you to achieve that. And in practicing it, in actually doing it, those virtues are cultivated. They become a part of you.
It's not just this abstract, like, “Hey, be more generous." Uh, “Be self-sacrificing.” It's an, it's a concrete way to— you know, “As a baseball player, here's how I become generous.” And it… as a baseball hero… Or like, “As a cook. Here's how I become generous too.” Right. It allows you. Not just to, to name the virtues, but gives actual opportunity to cultivate them and to realize them to become a virtuous person.
But then once that starts happening, this comes back to what MacIntyre talks about— another order of the internal goods—so now you start to see, it's not just, you know, for baseball, it's not just winning the 2016 World series… And again, not just the title there, but just what it is to finally live in that moment to be a part of it. You know, it's not just that accomplishment.
If you're talking painting, it's not just Rembrandt making, you know, the return of the prodigal son, but putting the finishing touch, letting the paint dry, and then there it is, which would be an internal good, like the painting itself. But it's not just that. It's also like the quality of life. Comes as you develop these virtues.
So for the baseball player, it's like— you know, I love Sandy Koufax—so it's like, it’s, it's what being a virtuous baseball player allowed for, like the life of Sandy Koufax as a, as a player. Or what being a painter—not just painting to sell it—but what being a painter made Rembrandt into.
Right. What being a chef makes the chef into, and that's a certain quality of life. That's an, an internal good that you really can achieve in a different way.
Julius: Yeah.
Wilson: And that leads to the last component to talk about, which would just be the telos, which means end, but not in as in like termination point—it’s a Greek word that means end, but not end as in termination point, but end, as in like the purpose. The goal. What’s this all about. And key with this, what practice helps us see is we might.
Like to, to really begin to engage in the practice. You have to have kind of a decent enough. Right. So this isn't just a total blind wheel. We're on a roll. Let's just start throwing balls at sticks and see what happens. It's it's, it's, it's not some you've got, but you also understand we have some kind of vague intuition that's good enough to act upon, but we don't really know the end point yet.
We’ve got enough that stimulates some, some faith that gives us some, right. We can get in this and we can start doing it. That's what we're headed towards. But as you practice it over time and you do it better and better as individuals and as people and as a collective, as you, as you get into it, the telos starts to become clearer and clearer.
And like you, it’s that kind of like, you make the way by walking it. Or you discovered the goal by getting there. As you start to have— then you start to see, “This is what it's really about.” And so there are certain ways where I can maybe talk about what baseball is really about. And I feel confident enough to say when it becomes just about money you’re…
Julius: Right.
Wilson: Right. But they're also playing it with Sandy Koufax can say so much more about what baseball is about and I can, because you've been in it, right. You've been, you you've been a part of it. And that's where you can name, like, “This is what this is about.” Right. Uh, I like coffee too. I get tips from you about making pour overs, but I think you have a better, you have a better intuition and you're developing the ability to say, “This is what I'm chasing, and this is what it's about.”
Julius: It's really interesting to me—and beautiful to me, quite honestly—that, um, all of those things kind of blend together. You know, that there's not like a… Um, I mean there's distinction, but it's not… Once again, thinking about the particular practice that I introduced, which is coffee… And now I think I've been talking actually more about culinary arts, which is something I aspire to, I think.
But, um, that, that there's something of the telos in the internal good of like when I'm talking about like, uh, oh, but just like the feeling of when you like, get it Right, Like when you're like, “I put, I put work into this. Used my arms to like grind the beans, like to grind the beans and to feel the mechanism.
And I could feel like I felt the rotations of the grinder and the burrs crushing the coffee to get the particles to this perfect size and getting the water temperature at the right… Uh, at just like the right temperature and like getting the pouring pattern just right, and getting the timing just right…”
That, there's something about that, that so rewarding. And there's something of the telos in that, but it's hard to name outside of like— I think when we were having our pre-conversation about this, one of the things that came to mind is, I think this word and concept of telos can be difficult for us to talk about because we've been conditioned to speak about things in such utilitarian terms.
I think it's hard for us to talk about, telos outside of that, because like it's easy for us to try to justify like, um, “Oh, music, the end goal is to, I don't know… like bring people together or like express something about it, about humanity?”
Wilson: Right,
Julius: And it's like part of it, but it's not quite the full thing…
And I like that you said that it's like a directionality kind of thing, because there's not like… Is there an end? Like, do you beat music? Like, “I wrote 500 songs. I'm like, I guess I'm at the end of it. I'm done.” Or like… [laughs]
Wilson: Well, um, I know it can sound off-putting maybe when you say you can't really know without participating. Right. And if your guard is up, I understand if there's been broken trust, I understand why that might seem, “h, well, I can see how that could be coercive.” Right? “Are you just like tricking me to take right to join your team? To get in…” Right?
I get how, uh, that could raise some defenses, but the trade-off is, this is exactly why. Th-something like a practice, the way it's described here can, can pull people together in a kind of harmony in a way that is qualitatively different than just one person imposing their agenda and will on other people.
Uh, it's, it's different than that kind of coercion and manipulation because something different happens when a group of people really start to do something. They find out it's worthwhile and all the people start to experience the internal goods, right. It— and it does, it woos our desires together. But it's not one person saying like, "Hey, come be part of my church so that I can build a worldwide empire.”
It’s, “Hey, come, let's do something together. Taste and see.” I mean, this is what Jesus says to disciples. Like, “Come follow me. Taste and see.” Right.
And then this, this over time begins to, because we experienced the goodness—and this is why I say, I mean, I kind of feel like if you really start to practice things, you're going to start to believe in God.
Julius: Dude. Yes.
Wilson: Um, might have different ideas about the character of God. You're right. That there's all sorts of other stuff there. You might use different language or whatever, but in some way, you're going to start to believe in something larger than us that is pulling, calling us, and slowly, patiently, but with love, trying to woo us back together to like, the kind of genuine worldwide, cosmos-wide harmony that we were made for.
Because when you start to experience it together, what we're tasting is something bigger than just my agenda, my goal, but something that's really, really good for me. And for us, and that begins to just organically shape and direct our desires away from the kind of Crossfire scenario where we're just going to clash towards something that you see.
"Oh, here's how, here's how, what I love and what I'm good at and what I would like to do with it can align with something that's good for everyone and everything.” And so the ultimate telos, we would say, you know, we said, you got to have just a clear enough example— you need both right here. And this is the nice little, um, uh, creative tension that you've got to have.
You've got to have a clear enough idea that you can start off somewhat confidently, but also an awareness of, “I only have kind of an idea. And we're not going to really know till we get in and do it.” And, uh, a concept or telos that we could say can be all embracing here is the kingdom of God. And, and in somehow, right?
If this is a genuine practice, if this is, if this is something that really is good, in some way as we do it, we're going to begin to manifest uniquely in a way no other way, no other, right, but, but because of this time, this place, this practice, we're going to uniquely manifest something about the glory and the nature of God and a God that created all things cares about all things and is working to lo—by love and in patience to bring all things back together into the kind of harmony it was made for.
MEDITATION
In the Bible, cities often appear as a symbol for human culture. They are stand-ins for all that can be achieved and built as our intelligence and energy is funneled through our habits and desires toward our personal and collective goals.
And the Bible, for most of its pages, is pretty negative about the city.
The first cities mentioned are built by the descendants of Cain. Cain was the first murderer, who became such by taking the life of his own brother.
And as the Scriptures unfold, the city of Babylon becomes a central image for what towering and enchanting things we can do when we crush each other for what we want.
The one exception or counterpoint is Jerusalem. This is a city that, at certain moments in the narrative, stands as a sign of what can happen when God's love and glory show through human culture. But, Jerusalem is only this occasionally.
And at other points in the narrative it gets so off track that even the Jewish prophets look at Jerusalem and say, no, that name does not tell the truth of things. Even you, Jerusalem, should rightfully be called Babylon.
Because it's so hard for groups of people to get on the same page. Especially when some of us have mastered habits and techniques for getting what we want.
But, then something interesting happens toward the end of the Bible, when the Scriptures elevate our gaze from our own desires and goals, and invites us to envision God's goal for all this.
In the closing book the Bible, Revelation, chapter 18, Babylon burns.
The merchants and kings and captains and all those who grew wealthy by participating in Babylon's practices of commerce and politics weep at the loss of all the culture that our best habits and ambitions could produce.
Don't miss that as these people groan and cry and tear their garments and heap ash on their heads, this is a genuine mourning.
And their words are recorded as an honest and haunting funeral dirge.
While there are things mentioned that definitely need to be burned to the ground - exploitation and bloodshed and slavery and adultery - there is also a sense of the tragic loss of many things of genuine value.
Things like craftsmanship, Art, Music, and Knowledge, are all enveloped in fire, too.
Now, in the Bible, fire is, of course, a symbol of judgement.
But it is also a symbol of refinement and strengthening.
And it is also a symbol of God's presence.
So what we see next is startling. Jerusalem emerges and makes it home, in the exact same location where Babylon just burned. And Jerusalem emerges not just from human culture and productivity, but from heaven, where God's goodness and love and creativity shapes things inside and out.
So has the city been consumed as it was enveloped, or cocooned, refined and strengthened in God's redemptive love?
With this in mind, I invite you to wonder what to make of the lines found in Revelation chapter 21, where it says the New Jerusalem has 12 gates, that are never closed because there are no longer any threats or enemies that need to be defended against. And, that according to verse 24, the Kings of the earth - the representatives of human culture - enter through these gates to bring their splendor to God's Jerusalem.
Because of what we take to be the answer, we'll spend the rest of this series exploring how we can practice key elements of the Christian faith as training. Training that helps us become the kinds of people who can see our personal habits and goals align with that kind of common, cosmic beauty.